2011 TE449 Running well with factory EFI system - finally

[Dangermouse449]

Disclaimer -

The following worked for my bike.
I am a mechanic, but I'm not a dealer, nor am I Husky trained.
I've gone from 5-10 flameouts per days ride to 'I don't even think about it' still with a factory ecu!
These mods were done after the 'normal' fixes didn't help this bike, & to see if it could be done without an added tuner box.

Edit 1 - Only attempt these mods if you have tried the conventional fixes, Map3, TPS reset etc. and only if you are confidant in your skills working on these expensive electronics.
Forcing the FBW throttle shaft to turn & powering the electrics with plugs disconnected may cause failures, expensive failures. Make sure everything is free of dirt before starting, dirt inside engines is not great.

Edit 2 - It may be, as found on a few of the following riders posts, that the 'after' 2011 bikes might need a TPS reset after the work is completed as detailed here -http://www.cafehusky.com/threads/updated-tps-efi-reset-449-511.28799/


About my bike -

- 2011 TE449 bought new 08/2012.
- Supplied Akro slip-on & jumper plug fitted from new at the dealer.
- Everything else standard until dealer updated mapping during warranty, map unknown at this stage.
EDIT 3 - Australian delivered bikes get an ecu with the same p/no. as Europe, there may be different/better/worse mapping loaded into them over USA/Can ECUs.

- Rode (rather than towed) my bike home from the dealer to put some easy Km's on it,
removed the huge number plate holder & mirrors & whet to the local marked trail to run it in.
(The track has several big hills & some fast open trails.)

- The bike stalled several times & the idle stayed high a couple of times.
- Took the bike home & adjusted the idle screw, still ran the same.
- Took it to the (BMW) dealer, they 'made some adjustments' & said it was fine. (It still played up the same)
- I started to try things myself & make adjustments. Some for the better, some for the worse, over about 6 months.
- I tried all the 'resets', idle screw set at the magic no. of turns etc, no change.

- Just prior to the 12 month warranty expiring, I took it to another local dealer (Berg & Husky) for them to check it out & left it there for a couple of weeks.
I was told they reset the TPS adjustment, reflashed the ECU, swapped ECUs with another bike (which is still in it as the VIN no. on the sticker doesn't match my frame now) Replaced the spark plug, checked the valve clearances, cleaned the earth & terminals etc.

- It ran well for half of the first ride until I stalled it on compression & then had the 'hard to crank over' thing they do, lost the data from the trip meter & clock.
From then on, it returned to flame-outs & erratic idle.
- I replaced the battery with a Lithium one with 90 more cranking amps & the dash now keeps it's memory.
- Went through TPS resets & idle settings again & again, no change.

- I had noticed that if the throttle was just cracked off idle, the revs increased, but it sounded laboured (fuelling not correct) & stumbled.
- I have had a 'dead throttle' condition a few times where I've opened the throttle, the engine run normally (no mis-firing/stumbling etc) but made no power & wouldn't accelerate. Once the throttle was closed, it returned to normal operation again.

- So I put a fair bit of thought into why it flames-out sometimes & not others.

I believe the Fly-By-Wire 2nd throttle doesn't open quick enough at times when you crack the manual throttle, so the ecu sees the throttle open, dumps in the fuel, the FBW plate is still partially closed so not enough air arrives & cough, flameout.
The 'dead throttle' is also the FBW butterfly, it doesn't open at times for some reason, but does not leave a code or flash 'Fail' on the dash.

What can I do about the FBW throttle?

- My original plan was to get the ECU for a TC449 as it doesn't have the second throttle & modify the harness to suit - N.G., too hard.

- You can't remove the FBW throttle set-up. as the ECU 'looks' for the motor & 2nd TPS.

So I stripped the air-cleaner out of the bike & removed the FBW throttle plate & screws from the shaft. (DO NOT drop the screws into the throttle body)
As far as the ECU knows, it is still running the show, all it is doing is turning a shaft & making sure the shaft turned to where it told it to via the 2nd TPS
I still have control of the cable throttle butterfly, and the ecu sees the 1st TPS signals as normal. All good.





What about the hanging idle?

- Obviously my ecu (actually 2 of them) is not capable of making any sort of decisions about idling!

EDIT 4 - My early bike has different ecu/software to 2012 onward bikes, yours may be fine & not need this next mod.

I stripped the throttle cable cover off the throttle body, removed the cable cam from the shaft & removed the arm from the manual throttle section. (This is the arm that the FBW throttle lift & lowers to control idle) Now the ECU can turn the shaft all it wants & not idle the motor high & spit me off into the trees every second time I ride it I set the idle speed off the brass idle screw similar to the idle knob on the TC , simple!

I have left the brass spacer behind the cable cam & made a plastic guide for the throttle spring to run on (As the arm has a 'cup' for the spring built onto it)
I also took a measurement of the factory gap for the set screw(yellow paint in picture) in case I fell the need to refit it later.



EDIT 5 - 9880sts has posted a pic of his idle arm mod in the thread, he ground off the 'riveted' end of just the roller shaft on the arm, that way the spring cup/guide is all factory, is would be reversible by a small tack of weld if you wish. No need to make a guide this way & safer.

And the dead spot off idle?

I decided to play with the TPS adjustment after finding other Keihin bikes are very picky about the idle output voltages (Most 0.45 -0.6)
It is pretty difficult to get at the pins on the TE449 to actually measure the voltage, so I decided to crack the TPS screw & move it just a bees-whisker in the direction of acceleration of the throttle shaft.
As I moved it slightly, the idle smoothed out & now transitions smoothly to cracked throttle.

Edit 6 - I'm in process of ordering the correct style plugs to make a male/female break-out test lead set & measure the TPS voltage)
Note - I'm unable to get small enough quantities of these plugs (anyone want 500 of them?)
Edit 7 - I've added this here from later in the thread of the the post .....

Some new info on the mods.​

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In the original post, I mentioned how I have readjusted my primary TPS to richen the maps. (Known as map-shifting)​

In the post, I did it by 'ear' finding the smoothest running, turning the TPS as you would a mixture screw on a carb.​

I also mentioned that I wanted to get some factory style plugs to make up a test loom & give you all a TPS voltage to aim for, but I had trouble buying small enough quantities of the plugs (less than 500).​

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Motosportz posted up a link to a guy who supplies KTM tps test looms (also Keihin efi).​

I'm happy to report that his test lead is perfect for this & I'll stick the link in the original post.​

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- http://www.tpstool.com/ (Use the one for EXC models with EFI, plug with 3 pins in a line)​

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For my bike, the best running without the butterfly in & the Akro slip-on muffler is an idle setting of 0.8v .​

This works sweet for my local conditions, no flameouts, nice fat power & can even crack the throttle to full at idle without hesitation.​

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I'd definitely recommend getting the plug set & try adjusting the settings on your own bike, as I believe it to be half the trouble with stalling issues!!​

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To use the test lead set -​

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- Have the ignition (Run switch) turned off (Do NOT turn power on with any plugs disconnected)!​

- Disconnect the lower TPS wiring plug from the sensor & connect it to the lead set, plug the other end of the lead set into the TPS sensor.​

- Start & run the engine.​

- Switch your multimeter to Volts DC (Have it on a setting that will cope with at least 5.0v as there is a signal of 5v in one pin of the plug)​

- Place the Earth lead of the multimeter on a good earth on the bike, I chose the cylinder head.​

- Place the Positive lead into the pins one at a time until you find the low voltage reading (Less than 1.0 v).​

- Compare to the the factory setting which is 0.7v.​

- As mentioned above, mine runs sweetest at 0.8v, this is achieved by undoing the locking screw & moving the TPS.​

- While you are there, check the 5.0v signal is very close to 5v, mine was 5.01v. (This can indicate power or earth problems to the ECU if incorrect)​

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** Note. If you move the sensor too far while adjusting, the ecu will cut fuel at idle. If this happens, move it back & begin again **​

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Over-all, I'm stoked at the changes.

No more driving over the 'bars into that creek bank or log you just tried to pop the front wheel over when it flames out.
No more spearing off the outside of a corner after you expect 450cc engine-braking & get 125 2-stroke engine braking instead.
-Since posting this thread, I've been on probably 20 rides, I can't fault the bike now, I don't even think about the tuning!

I have not bought an aftermarket ecu & had to tune it.
That is one of the fixes for flame-outs available & is plug in fix, but you still have to play with it & tune it. (And it won't cure the hanging throttle or dead throttle issues as it does not control the second throttle shaft)

Hope this helps someone else, as I've mentioned at the start, it worked for my Aust. delivered 2011 model.
It may not do anything for someone else's bike.

If you do go ahead with the mods, please leave some feedback here & let us know what you think -
http://www.cafehusky.com/threads/poll-449-511-efi-butterfly-removal.41619/

 

[oregonsage]

As I read this, I couldnt help but wonder what would have happened if this part had been done first....

And the dead spot off idle?

I decided to play with the TPS adjustment after finding other Keihin bikes are very picky about the idle output voltages (Most 0.45 -0.6)
It is pretty difficult to get at the pins on the TE449 to actually measure the voltage, so I decided to crack the TPS screw & move it just a bees-whisker in the direction of acceleration of the throttle shaft.
As I moved it slightly, the idle smoothed out & now transitions smoothly to cracked throttle.

As with all science experiments, I guess someone else can take that approach and add to our body of knowledge. In the end, the factory programmed ECU still calls for at the very least some enriching of fuel....but it sounds like you are probably running the Map Set #3/Akro/BMW setup. Otherwise PCV or JD would still be needed to make it reach potential.

 

[Londin]

That's a whole lot of trouble you went through instead of just adding a pcv.

True but this mod is FREE - i like free mods

 

[Huskynoobee]

I like it! Especially good for those like me who can't re-flash the ECU as it's locked and don't have $200-$400 on an aftermarket fueler.

I eventually got a JD, but still don't like adding points of failure either.

 

[huskylove]

YES YES YES! I JUST POSTED A THREAD ABOUT THIS RECENTLY. I am so glad I am seeing this.


I think it is my exact issue, and am doing the exact same thing right now. Also additionally going to ditch the airbox and add a cleanable uni pod filter that can be removed with a simple one screw/clamp and be cleaned. No more leaky airboxes. Kept the factory velocity stack/elbow because its a nice piece.


Did this increase the throttle response? If you hit the throttle 4-5 times in a row at idle does it still crack and die? How about power, any benefits in that department? How is throttle response at low rpm, geared up?

 

[Dangermouse449]

That's a whole lot of trouble you went through instead of just adding a pcv.

True, but what can I say, I'm a mechanic & like to fix things

A compulsive fiddler & I don't like things 'beating' me.

 

[Dangermouse449]

As I read this, I couldnt help but wonder what would have happened if this part had been done first....


As with all science experiments, I guess someone else can take that approach and add to our body of knowledge. In the end, the factory programmed ECU still calls for at the very least some enriching of fuel....but it sounds like you are probably running the Map Set #3/Akro/BMW setup. Otherwise PCV or JD would still be needed to make it reach potential.

The importer over here isn't aware of a 'Map3', but did refer to the Akro full race pipe tune, I'm fairly sure this is what was loaded into the ECU i ended up with.
It was snappier & had more poke than original, but didn't fix my original faults.
It is crisper down the bottom end now & pulls hard all the way to the limiter.
It is a decent match in a straight line with a still tight 2014 501 Berg.

 

[Dangermouse449]

YES YES YES! I JUST POSTED A THREAD ABOUT THIS RECENTLY. I am so glad I am seeing this.


I think it is my exact issue, and am doing the exact same thing right now. Also additionally going to ditch the airbox and add a cleanable uni pod filter that can be removed with a simple one screw/clamp and be cleaned. No more leaky airboxes. Kept the factory velocity stack/elbow because its a nice piece.


Did this increase the throttle response? If you hit the throttle 4-5 times in a row at idle does it still crack and die? How about power, any benefits in that department? How is throttle response at low rpm, geared up?

I can't afford to risk a pod filter (we have creeks to cross) & I ride on a beach once a year too, so left that alone.
I can crack the throttle off idle a few times in a row & yes, it is still crisp each time, no back-fires through the air inlet.
As for the power, see the above post, better after Akro race map, still good now.

I LOVE my bike now

** (The last ride I did before these latest mods, I nearly 'ghost=rode' it into the bush to leave it there out of frustration - Glad I didn't now!) **

 

[huskylove]

I have mine running very well with intake, exhaust, and power commander V with auto tuner and some "adjustments"

But if you blip the throttle 3-4 times before that flap opens it will shoot flames out the throttle body and cough/die. This was my suspicion that the extra butterfly sucks

I am working on the bike in supermoto trim so I need all the response and power I can get.

 

[Dangermouse449]

I have mine running very well with intake, exhaust, and power commander V with auto tuner and some "adjustments"

But if you blip the throttle 3-4 times before that flap opens it will shoot flames out the throttle body and cough/die. This was my suspicion that the extra butterfly sucks

I am working on the bike in supermoto trim so I need all the response and power I can get.

I couldn't find reference to any other bike (or car) with this crazy system.
If you are going to have a manual throttle, then have that. If you are going to have a fly by wire, then have that.
It blows my mind that they have both in series (I originally thought they must be in parallel, this at least would have made sense).
Husqvarna stated in a dealer briefing release that the dual flap system produced 'smooth power'. I don't want that, I'll be the smooth, you just do the power thanks.
I imagine it is about emissions, not coming on to power to hard & reducing fuelling, but it wrecks an otherwise great bike.
I have spoken to a couple of TC owners & they have no dramas at all.....

I also spoke to a guy after I did my mods who bought his TE as an ex-race bike. The dealer told him they had 'removed some flap thing' from his bike, his rides fine too.

 

[huskylove]

I do not seem to have the hanging idle issue. I do have reduced engine braking due to stalling off idle.

I am thinking of just removing the flap without modifying its ability to adjust idle.

It is very silly but my test was this;

On the street coming into a corner say 50mph in 6th gear cruising along. You exit the corner at a bit lower speed but still in 6th and you want to take off, whack the throttle open all the way and you are met with a "bleeeeehhhhhhhhhrrrraaaappppp" like I slowly rolled on the throttle. I could do it repetitively, it was like the power just took a second to wind up. Then when doing wheelies I would come down off balance point and want to give it more to get the front up and it was like it bogged when you nailed the throttle quickly. '

Like no matter what it was lacking snap or response. I hope this helps me, thank you for the write up

 

[Dangermouse449]

I do not seem to have the hanging idle issue. I do have reduced engine braking due to stalling off idle.

I am thinking of just removing the flap without modifying its ability to adjust idle.

It is very silly but my test was this;

On the street coming into a corner say 50mph in 6th gear cruising along. You exit the corner at a bit lower speed but still in 6th and you want to take off, whack the throttle open all the way and you are met with a "bleeeeehhhhhhhhhrrrraaaappppp" like I slowly rolled on the throttle. I could do it repetitively, it was like the power just took a second to wind up. Then when doing wheelies I would come down off balance point and want to give it more to get the front up and it was like it bogged when you nailed the throttle quickly. '

Like no matter what it was lacking snap or response. I hope this helps me, thank you for the write up

Sounds like the 'smooth power' in the broucher
We don't want that in a race bike.
I'll find that dealer release & post it up.

 

[9880sts]

Where are you from ?

My flame outs are almost gone after 2000km. but still sometimes. I would like to have the bike snappier , especially when u want to lift the front over a log or something.
it has got 480cc and should easy be able to keep up with a 530 ktm.
i made TC Airbox Modification. FMF Powercore Muffler .... but still i want a bit more and expected it. And as you said... not throwing me over he Handlebar.

I have 2013 MODEL, so i dont know if it will work ??

Did someone try yet ?



cheers.

 

[Dangermouse449]

None of those changes will ever be as good as a pcv, you simply just cannot tune the fuel maps and timing to mach the specific needs of your engine.

This is true Tinken, that is for sure, & I will look at getting more from it later with a piggy-back set-up.


My bike is now, though, closer to correct than it ever has been & didn't cost me anything other than time. I am enjoying riding it again.

Since the Akro race pipe map was installed, it has really come alive. These other changes were made to make the bike able to ridden.

The PCV wouldn't have fixed one of my main problems which was the hanging idle speed.

If I had the idle screw in far enough to stop it running on, it stalled all the time. If I wound it out, the idle hung.

TPS resets as posted seemed to have no affect on my bike for some reason, don't know why, so these are the things that worked for me.

 

[Dangermouse449]

Where are you from ?

My flame outs are almost gone after 2000km. but still sometimes. I would like to have the bike snappier , especially when u want to lift the front over a log or something.
it has got 480cc and should easy be able to keep up with a 530 ktm.
i made TC Airbox Modification. FMF Powercore Muffler .... but still i want a bit more and expected it. And as you said... not throwing me over he Handlebar.

I have 2013 MODEL, so i dont know if it will work ??

Did someone try yet ?



cheers.

I am in Queensland. Our bikes have only one airbox according to the parts pdf (TC or TE), but come with an Akropovic slip-on muffler supplied, so similar to your mods.
I would get your ECU maps updated first by a dealer, the map change made mine go hard.
The other things helped with stalling, throttle crispness & hanging idle that I had with my bike.

I really have no idea if these things will help a 2013 model, there are some ecu/wiring differences.

If you do decide to make ANY changes, mark/measure the things you change so they can be returned to standard if it makes it worse. This is important.

On my own bike, there was no adverse affect from removing the FBW 2nd throttle plate at all, but I have kept it with my other parts for later, just in case.

 

[huskylove]

I am waiting to get my bike back together and this 2nd flap will be going bye bye

 

[Motosportz]

Interesting stuff and I commend you for giving it a try.

 

[jasonmt]

True, but what can I say, I'm a mechanic & like to fix things

On the note of the PCVs, how do they 'see' load & revs etc?
As I see it (And correct me if I'm wrong), don't they only connect to the injector wire?
Revs come from the injector pulse, I guess, but surely it must be hard for the PCV to know exactly what the load (throttle settings) are from just pulse width???
The pulse width can change according to throttle setting, engine temp, air temp etc....MAP sensor output in most efi set-ups (but doesn't look like it on TEs)
Must be a fair bit of maths going on in there.

The PCV for the 449's hooks up in between the factory connectors and the PCV on the:

Injector.
TPS.
Ignition Coil.

And it also ties into the Crank Sensor Pickup - I just installed mine yesterday and it is not a real hard task to run the PCV harness neatly and out of site (and the PCV made enough of a difference on my TE630 that my "New" 449 looks like this with less than a hour of runtime:

:

 

[Pascal]

You run with power commander V, I saw jd jetting with control switch on handlebars. [:0]
http://www.jdjetting.com/xcart/product.php?productid=147&cat=0&page=&featured=Y
Are the same functions or not, what is your opinion on JD jetting ?

 

[Dangermouse449]

The PCV for the 449's hooks up in between the factory connectors and the PCV on the:

Injector.
TPS.
Ignition Coil.

And it also ties into the Crank Sensor Pickup - I just installed mine yesterday and it is not a real hard task to run the PCV harness neatly and out of site (and the PCV made enough of a difference on my TE630 that my "New" 449 looks like this with less than a hour of runtime:

:

Thanks for the info. The ones I looked at online only went to the injector plug & power/earth. This was my main reason NOT to per sue it further.

Thanks for the info, looks like a much better setup than I was seeing.
I stand corrected.