Sudden clicking noise on '11 TE449

[Marc Noel]

Greetings:

I just had a clicking sound start suddenly, and I am wondering if it may be that either a valve shim or ball was tossed. I would think that valve clearances gradually opening up would cause a gradual increase in clicking audible-ness (?). I have just under 4,100 Km on it in 48 months. Think I need to check valve clearances, or might it be something else?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Marc Noel]

Something else I was wondering about is, when I look at the range of shim/ball thicknesses in the parts catalog, the minimum/maximum thickness ranges are .7 and 1.1 mm, respectively. To me, that seems so small that it makes me wonder if it's even necessary to adjust anything at all. I am skeptical that a .15 mm adjustment (for example) makes a noticeable difference with regard to longevity. Any thoughts?

 

[Trenchcoat85]

don't start it. check your stator. It may not be your valve train.

read this thread: http://www.cafehusky.com/threads/449-511-important-urgent-flywheel-inspection.45218/

 

[Marc Noel]

Thanks, Trenchcoat85.

 

[Marc Noel]

Wouldn't the stator problem be an inconsistent, erratic sound, like a coin in a running clothes dryer? Mine is perfectly regular and rhythmic, in time with engine speed.

 

[Trenchcoat85]

Wouldn't the stator problem be an inconsistent, erratic sound, like a coin in a running clothes dryer? Mine is perfectly regular and rhythmic, in time with engine speed.

not at all- and don't chance it. take the cover off and inspect 'em.

also, I have a bad problem calling this a "stator" issue... it's actually a rotor issue. The stator is getting impacted by the rotor bolt(s). hopefully you don't have this!

it can be a very regular "tick".

edit for future readers: I missed (glazed over) Marc's clothes dryer analogy (the sound of a loose coin in the dryer). This problem and sound is not caused by 1 or more free bolts rattling around in the case, but rather 1 or more ROTOR bolts starting to back out, and the bolt head(s) hitting the stator each revolution. An extremely regular ticking sound, progressively louder maybe - at least until the head(s) shear off or the bolts back all the way out. And then it gets quiet; or even REAL quiet.

 

[Marc Noel]

I see, and I understand about the differentiation between rotor and stator. Thanks very much.

While I've got you on the line, any recommendations for replacement bolts and Loctite number? I saw multiple suggestions on the thread you referenced, but there seemed to be a dizzying array of choices.

It is amazingly coincidental that this should come up just as my road insurance is expiring. I will wait until everything is checked/fixed before renewing. I should save $ 3.28.

 

[Trenchcoat85]

...While I've got you on the line, any recommendations for replacement bolts and Loctite number? I saw multiple suggestions on the thread you referenced, but there seemed to be a dizzying array of choices...

well, if you look at the very LAST post (as of now) in the thread you'll see I asked the very same question. I believe that (we) are looking for M6-1.0x12mm grade 12.9 socket head cap screws (allens) but I'll wait for the recommendations. I don't own a 449/511, my son does.

Also, in spite of the poor engineering on these fasteners, I am not aware of any that have failed initially. All the damage seems to be from the fasteners backing out and impacting the stator (and then possibly shearing). True, the loosening may be initially from the fasteners being tightened beyond their yield... but I don't know for certain.

And this may not be your issue; but still- lay the bike on it's right side, pop the cover off (watch your finger tips) and inspect the fasteners. Maybe you can save a $400 stator.

loctite recommendations: blue (242, 243) or green (290 IIRC) should be fine. Hell, purple (222) would probably work. Avoid red (271, 272 IIRC) at all cost unless your totally serious. If the red cures correctly, you will NOT get the fastener out without a 400° heat source. Loctite needs an activator on non-ferrous metals, including stainless; also it needs an oil-free surface ('cept for 243). confession: I use the Harbor Freight stuff: <$2 and works fine.

good luck.

edit: btw, the ticking sound here is not a loose fastener bouncing around freely in the case; it's the head of the fastener hitting the stator while still in the turning rotor. it is slowly backing out of the hole.

 

[Marc Noel]

Trenchcoat85:

Thanks very much. I see now about the ticking. If it is that, I hope it hasn't backed out far enough to do significant damage.

Years ago, I used some red Loctite on some bolt, and it took 35 lbs.-ft. of torque to break it loose (the bolt had not been tightened down), without heating. It may be that I was able to remove it because of the lack of activator, which I didn't know about at the time.

 

[Marc Noel]

When you say Loctite needs an activator, is that the same as primer? I just looked at 243, and it says it is primerless, and works on active and passive substrates. There was no result on the site (henkel-adhesives) when searching for primer or activator.

 

[Trenchcoat85]

When you say Loctite needs an activator, is that the same as primer? I just looked at 243, and it says it is primerless, and works on active and passive substrates. There was no result on the site (henkel-adhesives) when searching for primer or activator.

I said "...needs an activator on non-ferrous metals, including stainless". Most people use Loctite without realizing they're not always getting full strength. Then they end up putting a steel bolt in an iron block using the red stuff- and suddenly they can't get it out 'cause they don't think to or can't apply heat for some reason (access or whatever).

get the 243 if you can find it- great stuff; but very rare.

all Loctite (purple, blue, green, red) has the same holding power (which is minimal) when it's not cured correctly. The fact the you got 35 ft-lbs from a non-tightened fastener is either impressive or understandable- depending. [Also: even though lb-ft is a measurement of torque, and ft-lbs is a measurement of work (which nobody ever uses), you'll be fighting an uphill battle if you try to correct people (believe me). Either go with newton-meters or convention... to make the conversation, and your life, easier. of course, when you start the conversation- use the correct unit. it'll jump over to convention. hell, everybody will shorten it up to "pounds" by the 3rd mention]

Loctite primer/activator: I did a search on your sentence and found many links.

here's the smart-ass answer:
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Loctite+needs+an+activator,+is+that+the+same+as+primer

 

[Huskynoobee]

Trenchcoat is on the money. Don't chance it, check the bolts first. The valve train on these engines is actually quite solid and overall, most people don't need to do much with them. But if your rotor bolts are good, it's the next thing to check.

 

[Marc Noel]

Huskynoobee:

Thanks for your input.

Upon reflection, it sounded like the noise was coming from the left side, but it may have seemed like that because of how loud the right-side exhaust is.

I have found both Loctite 243 and Unbrako bolts here, so I now just have to actually open up the bike.

 

[Marc Noel]

Trenchcoat85:

Thanks for your input.

Regarding torque terminology, you are one of only a few people that has ever expressed to me that they knew the difference between work and torque units. I'm glad to see it. In my case, I always start out with lbs.-ft., then correct and explain to people if they switch terms.

 

[Marc Noel]

Is it safe to say that, by the time I hear the sound, it is already damaged beyond repair?

 

[Trenchcoat85]

Is it safe to say that, by the time I hear the sound, it is already damaged beyond repair?

Not at all- you may have just caught it. I seem to recall more than one person who saved the stator in the nick of time.

Really, the inspection is simple (5-10 min): lay the bike on it's right side, take the cover off (the magnetism of the rotor will try to retain it- watch your fingers and don't gouge the case surfaces trying to lever it off) and put an allen wrench on the bolts, trying to tighten 'em a little... after the quick visual inspection for any damage of course of course.

actually, I bet a voltmeter would tell the damage story faster: start it up with a voltmeter connected to the battery (+12.6v dc beforehand, ~+14.2v dc idling... way less?, bad news perhaps). shut it off 20 seconds later.

maybe the ticking is the timing chain or something else in your valve train- but I don't want you to potentially damage the stator, just in case; so I recommend this easy inspection first.

good luck.

 

[Marc Noel]

Trenchcoat85:

Thanks for your thoughtfulness. I first heard the sound about 1.5 Km from home, where I shut it down. Let's hope it was in time.

I have gathered up tools, and am now waiting for the time to fiddle. Probably not until Monday.

Out of curiosity, how did you find out about my problem in the first place?

 

[Trenchcoat85]

Trenchcoat85:

Thanks for your thoughtfulness. I first heard the sound about 1.5 Km from home, where I shut it down. Let's hope it was in time.

I have gathered up tools, and am now waiting for the time to fiddle. Probably not until Monday.

Out of curiosity, how did you find out about my problem in the first place?

1.5Km (??oh... you're Canadian- shouldn't you be using Nm for torque?) t'aint far at all- you could easily be in luck.

I read your first & second post right after you made 'em; but I did not put 2 & 2 together until the someone posted a comment on the flywheel thread relevant to something else I posted a couple weeks earlier. Then it clicked- and I feel kinda remiss. it's a straightforward path: ticking? 449/511? check the rotor bolts.

Although this still might not be your problem.

Actually, there was another (Canadian) guy with a 449 that had a seat fastener problem. With the sparse clues he gave, I concluded he had a charging system problem- and since it was 449 I thought it might be the rotor bolt thingy. But I couldn't get him to test his voltage or really, anything. It turns out it was a bad lithium battery (which is the main component of a charging system, true; but still I considered it a slight misdiagnosis my part). Here is a post I made to him detailing my thought process in a contrived, long-winded story: http://www.cafehusky.com/threads/te...-micro-backup-battery-pack.80825/#post-559212

btw, the name "Joe" is my generic name for a Canadian... from those Molson commercials about 15-20 years ago ("....my name is Joe, and I-AM-Canadian!). and if you read the thread, I "was" shovelhead85 before Coffee's server shit the bed.

kudos to the Australian contingent for discovering this and leading the way to the solutions. Also the beemer guys deserve an at'ta-boy too- they've been staying on top of this since forever (Big Timmy and Campbell on this forum and the beemer forum)

 

[Marc Noel]

Trenchcoat85:

The actual distance I travelled was 40 cubits and a span...

If you don't already do it for a living, you missed your calling as a humourist. That story about Joe is hilarious. When I saw the second instance of "Well, that's Joe for you.", I entered Yuksville.

N-E-WAY, back to the original subject. I have inspected my rotor/stator, and there is no damage. The bolts are tight, and everything appears fine. I then decided to fire it up to listen for the suspicious noise and... nothing. I think what happened is, I wear earplugs when I ride, and sometimes they shift, so I hear more or less. It appears that I ended up just hearing the normal engine/valve train noise to a greater extent.

 

[Trenchcoat85]

Trenchcoat85:

The actual distance I travelled was 40 cubits and a span...

If you don't already do it for a living, you missed your calling as a humourist. That story about Joe is hilarious. When I saw the second instance of "Well, that's Joe for you.", I entered Yuksville.

N-E-WAY, back to the original subject. I have inspected my rotor/stator, and there is no damage. The bolts are tight, and everything appears fine. I then decided to fire it up to listen for the suspicious noise and... nothing. I think what happened is, I wear earplugs when I ride, and sometimes they shift, so I hear more or less. It appears that I ended up just hearing the normal engine/valve train noise to a greater extent.

This is great news Joe.... errr, I mean Marc. Are you gonna get new bolts for the rotor or just inspect every once in a while? I think I'm gonna do the new bolt thing to my kid's bike next time I get the opportunity.

Humorist- nope, not a chance. I get way too irritated and grouchy with people (even when I was young). I was ("was") an aerospace engineer, then a firmware engineer, then a software engineer. now: enforced retirement, unless I end up working at a gas station.

Hey, I gotta ask (all of you Commonwealth country-types): does the auto-spell/auto-correct bug the fu*k out you when it highlights words like colours, hyandlebaours, leveours etc? It would me, I suppose. BTW, there is a history to american spelling (it was not by happenstance): in the early 19th century there was a sharp turn away from all that was british, including the excessive baggage the various the english language spelling rules were carrying (and to some extent- still do) and a concentrated effort was made by Webster (IIRC, Noah? Daniel???) to come up with an AMERICAN dictionary- nobody had a copy of OED at the time. I can't spell very well to begin with, but the differences do not bother me- with the exception of words like "metre", "centre" for example. Those gawddamn french-isms annoy me for some reason ...and I still don't know when/how to use "whilst" or even what it actually means.