TE499 Seat Retainer Pin - and Micro Backup Battery Pack

Well, had a great ride last night.... but had clutch/drag battery issues after 3 hr of hard single track riding. Short story -- turned off bike at a break -- battery could hardly turn over -- even out of gear. This seems to happen to me after a couple hours of heavy hot clutch work.

Anyways....

I had been waiting for this to happen again, as I have recently bought a lithium ion booster pack similar to these... very cool items, and easily fits in my hydration pack.

http://www.cnet.com/news/pocket-sized-jump-starters/

Mine is about the size of an Iphone6 with 500 cranking amps. Anyways, hooked up the booster pack to my earthx (tons of cranking power now) fired the bike back up no problems.

The kicker here is that in my haste to jump the bike and get on with the group, I didn't screw the seat retaining pin down fully -- I ended up loosing it in the dark - bleech

Anyone have any suggestions as to the best way to replace this bolt/pin?

Any good mods or hacks to eliminate it and use something better?

thanks in advance

Hmmmm- it's a type Dzus fastener, right? (...and I take it you can't order it separately?). KTM might have something, and a lot of airboxes (Honda, Yamaha) used to use 1/4-turn fasteners back in the day. Try an aircraft supply company (Aircraft Spruce comes to mind) too. MSC, Fastenal, Granger, McMaster Carr etc would be good places to look. Sorry I don't have anything definite.

Speaking of looking... take a search run back out on the trail. I'm about 50% successful when I do this if I can narrow my search down at all.

Alternate fix: put a nut (Threadsert, nut retainer, "something") on the frame end (it's up front on your bike, right?) and use a knurled thumb screw (& use a bolt retainer so it stays with your seat during removal). That's a broad brush... I know.

BTW, are your sure your bike is charging?

Clutch drag: if you don't have air in your system and the fluid is full and no rebuild is necessary, then take almost all the freeplay out of your lever. I don't like it either.

good luck.

ps- holy sh*t! I just looked at your link for the jump start battery- wow, is that a lot of energy fast.

[edit: I was just looking a the parts book for my 310... that "pin" (Dzus) is available for $9.50 (husky part# 8000 H1917) and is the same for a 449. Call BMP (503.585.1153), ask for Bryan, Jon, Jonathan or Bill himself; tell 'em what you want and they'll send it out. sheesh]

[edit2: get #8000 H6598 "protective tongue" too ($1.25) if you need it. It's a triangular piece of plastic on my kid's 511, but in the parts book, it's rectangular. BTW, the 2012 parts book is here and the shop manual is here. If you need a manual for another year, try the Husqvarna Outlet.]

A - Awesome thanks on the name of the fastener, I had no idea and just learned something. I think I may be able to track one down faster now at a specialty fastener shop nearby.

B - Yeah, I think it is charging ok. If it isn't the problem is occasional and hard to trace.

C - Clutch drag, well -- the bike has been like this from day one. It seems to get worse a few hours riding in. No air -- new fluid -- clutch pack ok. I think this is just one of the quirks of the bike I need to accept.

The jump start batteries are really cool.... and a nifty piece of kit for the pack.

grrrrrrr. Let me try this again... and in order of importance:

• order the damn Dzus fastener for $10 (husky part# 8000 H1917)
• take 20 seconds out of your life and measure the voltage across the battery terminals while the bike is running (there's a small, ~30%, chance your charging systems sux. Less than 14v? you gotta problem, else you're golden)
• take the freeplay out of your clutch lever. just do it.
• go for a quick ride and search for your old "pin"
• download the free manuals if you haven't already

sorry for being so curt- but I'm getting old, sore & crotchety. All of your responses were almost deflections; it seems like your big take-away was the name of the fastener, while I was trying to give you a solution(s).

aw, shit- it's not you Andy... it's me. I've been on the internet since Carter was president (the prime minister up your way was Pierre and Margaret[!]); I quit posting in forums (news groups back in the day) in '89 because I have so little patience. Of course, it doesn't help that I just got out of a bar, which was blaring 50 Cent's "In Da Club"- and now I can't get that frikken song out of my drunk head (...it's your birthday...)

sorry.

....but please do these 5 simple things.

Oil weight and type are critical in this engine. What kind/weight are you using?

Thanks again Shovel and Tinken,

Hrmm, I certainly was not trying to be dismissive of your advice -- and very much appreciate it. My apologies if it did read that way to you.

- I'll certainly order the part if I can't track a fastener down quickly at a specialty bolt/fastener shop. Truth be told, Husky parts can take days or monthes to arrive up here after the KTM sale. I have on several occasions saved $ and time by using the wealth of info on this site to track down bearing #'s and the like. I thought the fastener might be something along similar lines, and thus why I threw it out there (after not finding anything on it, on the website). Your right though, I was pretty happy to learn the name of the fastener.

- My measured voltage sits around 14v - never seen it drop below 14.
- Free play has been out of the clutch for a couple years now.
- Done the manual thing.
- Well, the looking for the old pin ride..... I don't think that's gonna happen. Although I would be very happy to get another ride in and find it!

Tinken -- I'm using 0w40 Mobil 1 based largely on reading your suggestions on this forum. In fact, I've printed off alot of your posts and filed them away in my manual binders.

It may also be worth changing your clutch fluid. The line runs very close to the exhaust & can be affected by the heat. Adding fresh fluid will assist stopping it from boiling.
If you still have clutch issues, you may need to check pack clearances. There's a thread about it which I'll dig up for you.

The starting issue sounds like a failing battery.
Have it load tested, ideally when hot like when you've ridden.

Here it is.

http://www.cafehusky.com/threads/449-511-clutch-adjustment-with-shim-and-assembly.45458/

Thanks Danger,

I flushed and replaced the clutch fluid a few times, a few weeks ago (after boiling it) on a night full of technical hill climbs. I haven't checked pack clearances. I'll have a look through that info and see if I can figure it out. Thanks again

Hey Andy-

I stumbled across these fasteners on eBay; they look like the stock one on your Husky. No guarantees tho:
eBay quick release fasteners
That's a good price for the male/female part ($4.49 free US shipping!). I'm not sure what your resistance is to calling Rob Lang and getting one from him for $9.50 (maybe) but if it's money- by the time you get it to Canada it'll be a push. But there you go.

In my day (hah), that would be $20-$30. Of course it'd be mil-spec'd and stamped by DZUS (or Camloc or Airloc- whoever).

good luck.

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Hey Andy-


I wanted to say a couple of quick things about your clutch.


The Brembo clutch master has never been know for it's excessive travel. Coupled with a thick clutch pack, many Husky's clutches will drag a little... especially when cold. Mine drags pretty bad (but I have more than the usual amount of free play in the lever on my 310r).


You suspect that you've boiled your clutch fluid (aka DOT 4 brake fluid). That may not be the case- if you consider that the boiling temp of fresh fluid is 230 °C (446 °F). Now it's true the header easily gets hot enough to boil the fluid, but even with indirect contact (radiant heat) you should see the plastic coating on your stainless steel clutch line blistered at least; which, I assume (whoops!) you don't see. [if you are actually boiling the fluid, and you suspect the header pipe, cut a 6" piece of heat-reflecting tape and tape it length-wise around the clutch line. Tape it to itself, not the line, so as to leave a small air gap around the hose, if you can- and if not, it wouldn't matter too much really. Also if your header is this hot: why? Too lean? Can you see it glow past the 2nd bend of the pipe when riding at night?]


I would think that any other temperature sources hot enough to boil your fluid would be enough to damage your engine first... however, my Husky is the first bike I've owned with a hydraulic clutch, so I am not an expert. Perhaps one will chime in here and correct me. Most oils start to smoke at around 450°, which would be a huge clue too.


So, your clutch drags... and you say it gets worse with heat and/or time. That might rule out my first guess of too much free play in the lever (limiting total mc piston travel on an already short traveling piston). I asked previously if you needed a rebuild or had air in the system- which you did not answer directly, but did say: "the bike has been like this from day one".


I am now thinking you do have a small air bubble in your slave cylinder. This would slightly limit your initial travel when cool and, as the motor got warmer, the bubble would expand even bigger- pushing fluid back into the mc reservoir thru the relief port. This would reduce travel even more; or in other words: your clutch would drag more- maybe to the point of no travel of the slave piston. In essence, no clutch at all until the bike cooled down.


I would take an extra-hard look at your slave cylinder end of your clutch system- I think there is an air bubble hiding in one of the tiny nooks or crannies. If you can (I've never taken my kid's 511 slave cylinder off or apart) take the unit off intact, and manipulate it so that any entrapped air is free to go up the clutch hose. The next day, take the mc/lever off the handle bars and do the same thing to that end. Or maybe just reverse bleed your clutch. Whatever it is your doing, do something different.


As an aside, I've decided I do NOT like a hydraulically actuated clutch. I am super finicky about clutch feel, engagement and feedback, none of which a fluid clutch has. I can get a cable operated clutch (at least on a Honda or Yamaha) to operate with the smoothness and ease of a fluid actuated system; and it is much more modifiable. Also, if somebody (not me hopefully) has a clutch problem during a ride, cable actuated systems respond much better to field repairs.


My next post will be a totally made-up and contrived story describing how a flywheel bolt can cause a seat retaining pin to disappear.


Good luck.

While the fresh fluid boiling point is high enough to make it unlikely to fail in a clutch, brake fluid is hygroscopic and will contaminate itself with water from the air. Obviously water boils at much lower temps.
This is the reason it is changed at regular intervals.
You are probably correct though, possibly air in the system.

I must disagree with your feeling on the hydraulic clutches in general. If I have a choice, I won't be returning to a cable clutch again.
I really love the feel and light pull weight of the Brembo system on my TE.
They do have some clutch drag, maybe more than other bikes, as the clutch is mounted directly the crank and not geared down through the primary gears like most other dirt bikes.

Hi Andy.
I had have the same problem last weekend on an two hours hard enduro contest here in Germany. I lost the complete pressure in my clutch system and I thought I have a leak. But my biggest problem was: I could not start the engine ! The same act when I like to start the engine without pull the clutch lever. After a few minutes I tried it again and the engine starts. In my opinion it's a heat problem. Now it works without any problems.

I have both engines. The BMW G450 engine that the clutch has a cable activation and a thicker and heavier clutch overall by .140 thousands in the plates alone. A heavier deeper basket as well which along with those thicker 12 plates equates to more flywheel weight effect.

I also have the 2011 TC 449 engine with the Brembo hydraulic activation of the clutch with the thinner discs and lighter Husky Clutch pack. I prefer the Hydraulic activation much better than the cable. It's self adjusting for one and has a lighter pull at the lever with the master cylinder.

Before you ask, yes I did use a few different brand cable activated lever assemblies on the original BMW side cover that has the cable activated set up when it was in the bike.

Both the cable and the hydraulic activated clutches on the "Kymco 450" engines drag a bit, especially when cold and there is hardly no getting around this. I don't care what engine oil you run and I don't care what hydraulic fluid for clutch activation you run either. It will still drag some, if the plates are kept fresh.

However these particular clutches will also take more abuse for a longer period of time than any dirt bike clutch I have ever seen or ridden on any dirt bike.

I used to ride nothing but old "Maico's" when I was younger. Most all of them had smooth metallic and sintered metallic disc stacks, (No Fibers) in the clutch packs. With a single stubby "Mongo coil spring" with a pair of double snap rings. Requiring a large puller to compress it to assemble the first snap ring into center hub and again for the final drive plate and a second snap ring.

You think the "Husky" clutches drag?

Not even close !

My old "Adolph Weil Replica '77 Maico MC 400" will easily pull the front wheel in 1st gear when the clutch is all the way disengaged. Using the highest dollar "Magura ISDE Dog Leg Levers" money can buy. If you give it too much throttle, it could damned near be looped in 1st gear with the clutch all the way in and guess what? To the unsuspecting rider. Who may be sitting in a position too far back on the seat, you would find yourself quickly sitting on your ass in the middle of the trail in the dirt.

If you wanted to ride it at all and didn't give it a good rolling push with your feet before kicking it into gear you weren't going anywhere. It's still like that.

By the way, how about that lost seat retainer "Dzus Button" needed to hold the seat on?

I've also recently noticed that $150.00 battery booster charge packs the size of a pack of cigarettes or smaller than your smart phone are on sale right now for about $75.00 bucks all over the place.

Merry Christmas everybody.

I've come to the conclusion that on this bike there is just a Standard Operating Procedure for starting after a stall or flame-out (this is even with the EarthX installed in my bike):
1. Put it in neutral.
2. Hit the starter for a split second to let the gas pump spin up. If locked at top-dead-center. Put it back in gear and rock the bike back-and-forth a few times. Return to step #1.
3. Despite being in neutral, pull in the clutch and hold the starter for a few seconds without throttle. If she starts, stop here. If not proceed to step #4.
4. Despite being in neutral, pull in the clutch and hold the starter for a few seconds and ease the throttle on a little. If she starts, stop here. If not, return to step #3.

Warning: a long, made-up story follows this post. Jump to the next thread if, like me, you have no patience.

HOW A LOOSE FLYWHEEL BOLT CAN CAUSE A

DZUS FASTENER ON YOUR SEAT TO GO MISSING.

Or

"That's Joe for You"

...a totally contrived story

I have a friend with a TE511. He is a great rider, but a little short in the maintenance department; not a detail orientated person I guess. We'll call him "Joe".


About a year after he got his 511, I told Joe about a maintenance issue I read about on the popular forum, Huskoovarna Diner, which detailed an occasional problem with the new engine's flywheel bolts. Apparently, some of these bolts have been coming loose and causing minor or even major electrical problems; sometimes much greater damage even. I passed this on to him and also the fact that some BMWs, which use the same basic platform, were experiencing the issue also. It might have something to do with a crank that rotates in a different direction, but I don't know if that's true or not. These engines are very well designed, but there are always minor teething problems on any new system. Joe kinda pooh-poohed my concerns- well, that's Joe for you.


Joe had a battery go bad after his second year (when he had about 2500 miles on the bike). The battery had needed a charge occasionally, and Joe figured he "cooked" it by charging it too hard one too many times. He decide to buy a super-duper Bismuth/Freon Plasma battery- which had 3x's the cranking power and capacity, at half the weight. Joe spent the extra $150 and got the special computer-controlled BFP charger, to go with his $200 battery. Over $300 for a battery? -well, that's Joe for you.

I asked him what his voltage was and he answered he was pretty sure it was good. "Pretty sure?"....hmmm, those BFP batteries have a nominal voltage of 13.47v and need to be charged at 14.156v max. Fairly tight requirements to be guessing at voltage, I think. But that's Joe for you. He just can't take the minute out of his life to actually measure the voltage.


After every ride, Joe put the bike on the super-duper xtra-smart deluxe charger... which conditions the battery for maximum life. With this battery, even with the slight clutch-drag some Huskys are known for, he can crank it over at 1200rpms. It starts first time, every time, with no problems...


....until this year. Joe's battery sometimes does not get the job done. So he has been in the habit of parking on hills lately so he can bump-start the bike, and he even made a set of little mini-jumper cables so his buddies can give him a jumpstart if needed. A minor annoyance sort of, but really not a problem- in Joe's mind. Well, that's Joe for you.


In fact, after his buddies started bitching a little- he bought a super-duper compact jumper battery that fits in his pocket. Very small, very light, very powerful- it uses Potassium/Bromide Gluons to generate megawatts of power in picoseconds. Very high tech- it even has a USB port. And it comes with a neat little adapter that fits on the bike's BFP battery so he just has to plug the PBG thingy in and it starts right up. Neat, but that's another $100- well, that's Joe for you.


But now a new problem arose: after removing the seat so many times so the bike could be jump-started, Joe noticed he had lost the little plastic retaining washer, which keeps the Dzus-type fastener attached to the seat during removal. Lots of people use the fastener bail as a handle to pull the seat off, and in Joe's case, eventually the washer fatigued. So now, when he took the seat off, Joe had to be careful that he kept track of the fastener. Eventually after many rides Joe lost the fastener itself- when he was in a big rush to get back on the trail, as the sun was going down and his buddies already had left. But he had only made a 1/8 turn on the 1/4 turn fastener. It bounced down the trail unnoticed at the first jump. Well, that's Joe for you.


That evening I got an email from Joe asking where he can get the "pin" that holds the seat on to his bike. I scratched my head for a bit, then realized he was talking about the Dzus quarter-turn fastener that Husky has been using for a while now; in fact KTM uses the same thing. I wrote back telling him the name of the fastener, the part number (I didn't realize Joe had a parts book too, and could've looked it up himself; grrrrrrrrrr.....well, that's Joe for you) and asked whats up?


Joe called me and told me the story about losing the "dee-zus" fastener last night. It was then that I told him: "it's pronounced "Zeus", Joe- like the Greek God". He said "whatever- I just need to go to the hardware store and get one". Uh, Joe... you know there is no hardware store in the world that's gonna carry that- just try a Husky shop. Well, he goes on to tell me since the auto parts store had the "special" bearings he needed for his 511, why not give it a try? Besides, Joe is absolutely positive no Husky or KTM shop will carry it. Well, that's Joe for you.


I ventured my opinion that more bearings are made in a single day in China then the total amount of Dzus fasteners manufactured since the 1930s. Bearings are the epitome of a commodity part; Dzus fasteners define the phrase "specialty part" (and are probably still manufactured by the inventor's family). Also, Dzus is just kinda a name now, Joe- there are a small handful of manufactures making these things, like Camloc and Airloc. But that being said, just about every KTM & Husky uses 'em so the chances are good that there's one in stock at a shop that supports these bikes; but no where else is gonna retail these things. Give Rob Lang a call, Joe- or, shit, just take a fast ride down the last trail you went on... it's probably laying in the dirt (if you get there ASAP, that is).


And BTW, Joe... what's the voltage that your system is putting out? ...Hell, I dunno (says Joe)- I'm pretty sure it's okay, 'cause the headlight works beautifully. I hafta jump start it occasionally, sometimes. And I'd like to go looking for that thingy on the trail but that's not gonna happen... [Hrmphhh. WTF- "....not gonna happen"? Grrrrrr...Shit, that's Joe for you.]


Joe has a tendency to react to problems rather than anticipate them. He also will address the symptom of an issue but often fails to treat the underlying cause. That's Joe for you.


Well- no, actually... that's most of us. We often miss patterns and fail to make connections.


I'm going to end the story here- I figure that you can guess that Joe's 511 had a loose flywheel bolt which damaged the windings on his stator. He has been riding over a year with a failed charging system, basically running a total-loss system. Riding for an hour or two, the battery sometimes had a hard time turning the engine over, 'specially since Joe had a small air bubble in his clutch slave cylinder which caused even more clutch drag when the bike was warm. After charging & jump-starting his bike so many times, which requires the removal of the seat- the retaining plastic to his Dzus fastener fatigued and no longer held it in. Eventually, Joe lost the fastener, when he failed to engage it a full quarter turn after hurriedly jump-starting the bike because his buddys had already pulled out.


And the cascade of these seemingly unrelated issues were all caused by this one loose bolt: windings, charging, batteries, and seat fastener loss.


However, even with that long-winded example, I do not think your bike has a loose flywheel bolt Andy- but it is (somewhat) possible. I also do not think you have a charging problem either... but there is a greater chance of this. Let me re-word a few things: I don't know if 449's suffer from the same problems as the 511's but I gotta believe they do, so check your flywheel bolts when you get a chance. Also, again: check your charging system- there is a fair chance you have an issue. And a KTM or Husky shop stands a good possibility of having this "pin" in stock. A fastener shop will not; and if by the grace of god they do have one in your depth/length... you'll hafta purchase the female end with it too, I bet.


I realize I have used a few elements of your issues and embedded them in this totally made-up story. I just wanted to demonstrate how, with a few incidental clues you happened to give, that someone like me could suspect (in your case) a charging problem when you had a seemingly unrelated hardware problem(s)- which is actually a symptom of the deeper problem. I would guess that Dangermouse was thinking along the same lines.


Good luck.

Um. Did joe not notice the wire fragments in his oil? Or does joe not know that he needs to change his oil every 300, not every 3000 miles?