Fuel pump, need auto experts here please

[MorrisBetter]

Since a failed fuel pump does not cause an increase in emissions it is not covered by the emissions warranty.

A quick search of the CARB web site produced this which seems to disagree:

The California Air Resources Board (and manufacturer's name, optional) is pleased to explain the
emission control system warranty on your (year) (vehicle, truck, or motorcycle). In California, new
motor vehicles must be designated, built and equipped to meet the State's stringent anti-smog
standards. (Manufacturer's name) must warrant the emission control system on your (vehicle, truck, or
motorcycle) for the periods of time listed below provided there has been no abuse, neglect or improper
maintenance of your (vehicle, truck, or motorcycle).
Your emission control system may include parts such as the carburetor or fuel-injection system, the
ignition system, catalytic converter, and engine computer. Also included may be hoses, belts,
connectors and other emission-related assemblies. Where a warrantable condition exists,
(manufacturer's name) will repair your (vehicle, truck, or motorcycle) at no cost to you including
diagnosis, parts and labor.

 

[OlderHuskyRider]

Doesn't the Suzuki RMZ use a Mikuni system? If so, has anyone price shopped them?

Thanks for your input Manic, I think you are bringing some much needed knowledge to the search.

The Suz RMZ fuel pump is $400
http://www.bikebandit.com/2009-suzuki-motorcycle-rm-z450/o/m18165#sch593702

 

[Manic]

A quick search of the CARB web site produced this which seems to disagree:

The California Air Resources Board (and manufacturer's name, optional) is pleased to explain the
emission control system warranty on your (year) (vehicle, truck, or motorcycle). In California, new
motor vehicles must be designated, built and equipped to meet the State's stringent anti-smog
standards. (Manufacturer's name) must warrant the emission control system on your (vehicle, truck, or
motorcycle) for the periods of time listed below provided there has been no abuse, neglect or improper
maintenance of your (vehicle, truck, or motorcycle).
Your emission control system may include parts such as the carburetor or fuel-injection system, the
ignition system, catalytic converter, and engine computer. Also included may be hoses, belts,
connectors and other emission-related assemblies. Where a warrantable condition exists,
(manufacturer's name) will repair your (vehicle, truck, or motorcycle) at no cost to you including
diagnosis, parts and labor.

Again, the point your missing is that they are talking about a failure in the fuel system that would cause an increase in emissions. Since a vehicle that is not running emits far less than even a properly running one, the fuel pump typically will not be covered by the emissions warranty. What ARB's website is referring to is a problem with the fuel system, like a leaking injector seal, bad sensor, intake problem, etc, etc. It can also concern something that will turn on the check engine light, like some of the before mentioned problems. The other thing you need to realize, the vehicle manufacturer will have a very specific list of what is covered & what's not. Believe me, I know from professional experience, as a technician and in my dealings as a BAR Rep that sometimes it can be difficult to get a manufacturer to cover something, even when it's on their list of covered item! There is a whole myriad of things going on when it concerns emissions warranties and they don't just include ARB but also EPA. I'm sure if you do a search on the internet, you can find a very large # of settlements between manufacturers and the EPA regarding emissions problems.

 

[Manic]

Let me also dispel another misconception. BAR does not make Smog Check Laws. It regulates the Laws & Regulations that govern the Health & Saftey Code as well as the other laws that regulate the automotive repair industry. We are a division of the Department of Consumer Affairs. ARB actually proposes a lot of the emission laws including the ones that cover emission warranties. Legislation is what determines what is law. Also, just so you know, I left Honda as a Master Technician, I am a multi time recertified ASE Master Technician & L1 technician and have had my Smog license since 1994. Please don't take this as bragging. I'm just trying to qualify my answers to the questions being asked on this forum. That being said, these are very complex issues and I don't pretend to have all the answers but I do know a bit about this particular issue.

 

[Manic]

My avitar is actually what I put on my 13 year old daughter's phone screen saver. Hell I can't even regulate her!

 

[HUSKYnXJnWI]

Thanks for your input Manic, I think you are bringing some much needed knowledge to the search.

The Suz RMZ fuel pump is $400
http://www.bikebandit.com/2009-suzuki-motorcycle-rm-z450/o/m18165#sch593702

looks like they sell the WHOLE assembly only as well- Trick would appear to be to find a bike manufacturer that sells them separately- but there's probably a reason for this... Maybe someone could try to source that Sherco pump again

 

[ajaxauto]

I own a wrecking yard here in So Calif Ajax Auto Wrecking .We have over 2,500 cars and trucks i have been here for over 20 years so we have seen the the electric fuel pumps from the start of FI.
We have also raced and supplied many a pump to off road car teams Have raced FI cars and won Baja and never had a fuel pump problem by using the correct parts for the cars we set up .FIRST off i have never had any luck with aftermarket expensive fuel pumps either inside the tank or outside the tank.Best pumps for a outside stand along pumps
are 1986 or 87 ford trucks or cars after that ford put them in the tank .Any of the early Mersedes or Volvo have a outside fuel pump which work well.For inside the tank beleive it or not we have use a bosh pump out of a 1995 up to around 2002 Kia sportage but many cars and small trucks use the same pump .We have used this pump in many a off road race truck mounted inside the fuel cell and after many years of racing never had one fail
As for a regulator the best one we have found comes from a company called Fluid Control Products Inc www.fluidcontrol.net they have a very small regulator which has never fail us .As for some of the other late model cars like the hondas and toyotas
we do not sell that many pumps as compaired to all the rest of the bigger suv or trucks which we sell a lot of them because they have failed . hope this will help you if you
if you find a pump that will work for you please give me a call and we can sell you one thanks john 760 398 0147

 

[Manic]

Good info!

 

[waserman]

heat from motor

I may have found it, the heat related thing may be it, explains why it never does it cold and when it does do it, it gets better with a cool down.

The Yamaha WR250R is doing the same thing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=949P9Ytvu9w

There is a recall here in Japan. Yamaha dealership will replace fuel pump for free.

The heat expands fuel pump's impeller and it hits the housing, jamming the impeller from spinning.
=========================
From the justgastanks.com website, talking about their offering for the WR250R:
Your stock fuel pump has been known to fail if you read about issues with the bike online. Please check this first if you have a problem.
===========================
thread at TT about failed fuel pumps in 2008-2009 on WR25Rs
http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=803090&page=7&highlight=fuel+pump

I'm not a fuel pump expert but this seems to make sense to me,I posted some findings about similar issues I was having back in July with my 09 TE510.I had changed to a larger white/clear IMS tank at the same time which may have accounted for the fuel staying cooler in the tank,hence no more issues with the pump not priming or short cycling.Prior to this if I shut the bike off,or stalled and went to restart,I guess the heat from the motor being hot was enough to heat the fuel pump enough to keep the impellar from turning,until the engine cooled down enough.Maybe some kind of a heat shield under the fuel pump mounting plate would be the ticket.

 

[OlderHuskyRider]

Returnless Fuel Injection Systems
http://www.underhoodservice.com/Art...return_returnless_fuel_injection_systems.aspx

 

[HUSKYnXJnWI]

not sure there's a diference in pump on "returnless" systems or not... after looking at numerous pumps (maybe its the type of pumps we are all looking at that are already for "returnless systems"- anyway they all appear very simular- appart from maybe the plumbing system which would be a return line...?

Check out these two pumps: they are at 43 psi and around 25 GPH (g/h) by my assessement- bit more flow- (reading some on this- has led me to believe a little extra flow can be a good thing more than bad- but I don't express the belief I fully understand the plumbing that is going on yet....)
These are the lowest GPH I can find for auto fuel pumps with near 43 psi- apparently the "high" presure of 43psi coincides with returnless systems....? Thowing these to into the cagematch for assessment by those that may have studied on this and may have some kind of educated assessment:

http://www.expressfuelpumps.com/gsl393-160lph-walbro-inline-fuel-pump-universal-p-3784.html
http://www.fuelpumps.com/19942000-kia-potentia-20l-fuel-pump-4-cyl-20l-p-2216.html KIA pump- kia 2.0 liter motors have been described as a returnless system in a kia forum I found....

 

[OlderHuskyRider]

http://www.fuelpumps.com/19942000-kia-potentia-20l-fuel-pump-4-cyl-20l-p-2216.html KIA pump- kia 2.0 liter motors have been described as a returnless system in a kia forum I found....

1994-2000 Kia Potentia 2.0L Fuel Pump 4 Cyl. 2.0L

OE spec Walbro electric fuel pump and installation kit fits directly into any 1994-2000 Kia Potentia 2.0L 4 Cyl. 2.0L. Detailed fuel pump installation instructions included. Made in the USA.

Fuel Pump Specifications
Walbro Part Number: TCA3370
Minimum Current: 12 Volts
Operating Pressure: 43.5 PSI
Minimum Flow @ Outlet: 21 GPH High Pressure
Fuel Pump Location: In-Line

Hello and thanks for your interest in our Walbro product line. The TCA3370 is NOT for a returnless system. Sorry. Best regards, Nahla Young, Customer Support

 

[HUSKYnXJnWI]

Lets go back to the discussion of returnless systems.... explain or show how ours is defined as returneless and why- I am not entirely certain it would not be- I have NOTHING to refer to at this time or to qualify that- but I am not certain any one has been able to qualify or define our system in those terms yet....
look at this page- I think we have electronic returnless? if ours is returnless?

BUT different than a car- everything is inside our tank- our Fuel Presure regulator is in our tank- I believe our may not translate in the same theory as a "returnless" system. On a car a return line would come from the presure regualtor modualted by vacume (like on my jeep)- Ours is in the tank I belive it to be called the "presure sensor" as one part of the M.A.Q.S. I am not certain but if "overflow" is returned into the tank and regulated there- there's your "return".

 

[OlderHuskyRider]

not sure there's a diference in pump on "returnless" systems or not...

I am just learning all this stuff myself, I swore I'd never buy a FI motorcycle, and now paying the piper....

If a system has a return line, there is relief for the "over-pressurization" of the system. If it is a "returnless system" there is no return line for the excess pressure, and the pressure regulator, I am guessing, is a relief hole/valve either on the firlter or after the filter, and I am guessing that my green arrow here points to the pressure regulator hole....just my guesses....

So I am guessing that since there IS pressure relief (the hole) then it is NOT necessary for the pump to know what system it is running in, it just pumps......I see what you are saying now, I hope Manic is reading this....

 

[OlderHuskyRider]

All of this effort to identify a $7 - $10 wholesale part....

motorcycle electric fuel pump for CF,TAYO,YAMAHA FOB Price: US $7 - 10 / Piece
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/362637418/motorcycle_electric_fuel_pump_for_CF.html

 

[rajobigguy]

All of this effort to identify a $7 - $10 wholesale part....

motorcycle electric fuel pump for CF,TAYO,YAMAHA FOB Price: US $7 - 10 / Piece
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/362637418/motorcycle_electric_fuel_pump_for_CF.html

Yeah but you did notice that there is a minimum order of 200 pieces didn't you.
BTW You have it right , a pump is only a pump and doesn't know weather there is or isn't a return or where the return is located, the only exception would be a electrically regulated pump that maintains pressure via the voltage supplied to the pump (not a real common way of doing it).

 

[HuskyDude]

Or it will take all of 4-6 week delivery. Think about where it coming from.

 

[HUSKYnXJnWI]

Ema LU (supplier) looks like she's 8years old...

Finding "the" same pump as the stock one would probably be sourced from some kinda website like that though....

maybe her grandma LEE LU will start an ebay account and sell them as singles...?

 

[firebolter]

At 7 bucks each, heck I'd be willing to buy 5, so 200/5=40

So if 40 of us bought 5, we could test them for cheap and sell the extra's for 15 bucks if they worked!

Seriously, I would go in on a group buy for 5.

 

[MorrisBetter]

Again, the point your missing is that they are talking about a failure in the fuel system that would cause an increase in emissions. ....

Well, this is just wishfull thinking on my part I guess. Since I can't change ANYTHING WRT smog on my CA vehicle without a CARB number, it would seem that the entire system would be covered.

In any case, the pump is almost certainly an OEM part that is used in other applications, and I'm guessing that it's not $600 everywhere. Does it cross to a BMW or other Euro' part number? Maybe even a Japanese part?