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Hi everyone,
As you all know, Coffee (Dean) passed away a couple of years ago. I am Dean's ex-wife's husband and happen to have spent my career in tech. Over the years, I occasionally helped Dean with various tech issues.
When he passed, I worked with his kids to gather the necessary credentials to keep this site running. Since then (and for however long they worked with Coffee), Woodschick and Dirtdame have been maintaining the site and covering the costs. Without their hard work and financial support, CafeHusky would have been lost.
Over the past couple of weeks, I’ve been working to migrate the site to a free cloud compute instance so that Woodschick and Dirtdame no longer have to fund it. At the same time, I’ve updated the site to a current version of XenForo (the discussion software it runs on). The previous version was outdated and no longer supported.
Unfortunately, the new software version doesn’t support importing the old site’s styles, so for now, you’ll see the XenForo default style. This may change over time.
Coffee didn’t document the work he did on the site, so I’ve been digging through the old setup to understand how everything was running. There may still be things I’ve missed. One known issue is that email functionality is not yet working on the new site, but I hope to resolve this over time.
Thanks for your patience and support!
125-200cc Eric Gorr 144 kit in an 09 WR125
- Thread starter wallybean
- Start date
wallybean
Mini-Sponsor
Jsleeper,
The main reason I went to the kit was because I could not get rid of the mid-range bog in 125 form. I systematically took the carburation from too lean to too rich on all circuits and I was unable to eliminate the bog. When I got to the best jetting combination I then changed the timing from retarded to advanced and while slightly advancing the timing helped a little it still had the bog. My bog made the bike virtually unrideable in tight steep stuff. You could not get the bike to recover through the bog with heavy clutch use. The slightest dip below the power valve opening and it would immediately fall on its face. This led me to adjusting the power valve opening and all the spring changes. Oh and all this is after installing an FMF fatty as well as the new Husky pipe. The pipes helped but certainly did not eliminate the worst of the bog. The springs allowed me to lower the PV opening rpm through the bog. Unfortunately when you have the PV open at a low enough rpm ~ 5000 it becomes not particularly easy to ride because this motor runs so well when it opens the motor becomes a jekyl and hyde like personality. So at this point with my injuries limiting riding anyway the cylinder went off to EG.
I know you wanted a simple answer but you really need to know the whole progression and evolution. I would read about the guys who's 125 ran well and scratch my head and want to try for a lemon law solution. I am just not wired that way. I want to fix the problem not pass it on. The 144 kit does not eliminate the bog completely. It just allows the motor to pull enough in that region that it will pull right through it. Prior to the kit if you weren't going down hill the 125 wouldn't pull onto the pv in 6th gear no matter how much the clutch was slipped. With any kind of an incline it would not pull onto the pipe in any gear higher than 3rd no matter the clutch work. With the kit it will now pull well off the bottom through the bog and onto the pipe. With the power valves modded the bike no longer has a bog and is amazing to ride.
My final modification will be to make the power valve opening more progressive. With any of the single rate springs it opens so quickly you better be prepared the 144 runs that well. I will get it right because the rest of the bike is so amazing. I probably could have eliminated all the futzing by just waiting for the TXC 250, but then I would have missed out on all the enjoyment of making the little WR run like it should out of the box(yes I do really enjoy this stuff).
As for jetting, the combination that most of the guys have ended up at is what is working best for me.
450 main
kit needle in the 4th slot down
32.5 pilot
1.5-2 turns out on the airspeed
PS, In 144 clothes the FMF Fatty works slightly better than the new Husky pipe everywhere and typically needs one slot leaner on the needle. I assume this is due to better pulse timing allowing less of the new charge to escape.
I will have in the near future a PV govenor spring selection available for you guys that will offer a progressive opening with the ability to adjust where the pv opens fully. I expect the kit to cost about $40 and be very easy to install and personallize.
Sorry for the long winded reply but I hope it helps explain my situation which while not universal certainly can't be an isolated example of the 125.
Walt
The main reason I went to the kit was because I could not get rid of the mid-range bog in 125 form. I systematically took the carburation from too lean to too rich on all circuits and I was unable to eliminate the bog. When I got to the best jetting combination I then changed the timing from retarded to advanced and while slightly advancing the timing helped a little it still had the bog. My bog made the bike virtually unrideable in tight steep stuff. You could not get the bike to recover through the bog with heavy clutch use. The slightest dip below the power valve opening and it would immediately fall on its face. This led me to adjusting the power valve opening and all the spring changes. Oh and all this is after installing an FMF fatty as well as the new Husky pipe. The pipes helped but certainly did not eliminate the worst of the bog. The springs allowed me to lower the PV opening rpm through the bog. Unfortunately when you have the PV open at a low enough rpm ~ 5000 it becomes not particularly easy to ride because this motor runs so well when it opens the motor becomes a jekyl and hyde like personality. So at this point with my injuries limiting riding anyway the cylinder went off to EG.
I know you wanted a simple answer but you really need to know the whole progression and evolution. I would read about the guys who's 125 ran well and scratch my head and want to try for a lemon law solution. I am just not wired that way. I want to fix the problem not pass it on. The 144 kit does not eliminate the bog completely. It just allows the motor to pull enough in that region that it will pull right through it. Prior to the kit if you weren't going down hill the 125 wouldn't pull onto the pv in 6th gear no matter how much the clutch was slipped. With any kind of an incline it would not pull onto the pipe in any gear higher than 3rd no matter the clutch work. With the kit it will now pull well off the bottom through the bog and onto the pipe. With the power valves modded the bike no longer has a bog and is amazing to ride.
My final modification will be to make the power valve opening more progressive. With any of the single rate springs it opens so quickly you better be prepared the 144 runs that well. I will get it right because the rest of the bike is so amazing. I probably could have eliminated all the futzing by just waiting for the TXC 250, but then I would have missed out on all the enjoyment of making the little WR run like it should out of the box(yes I do really enjoy this stuff).
As for jetting, the combination that most of the guys have ended up at is what is working best for me.
450 main
kit needle in the 4th slot down
32.5 pilot
1.5-2 turns out on the airspeed
PS, In 144 clothes the FMF Fatty works slightly better than the new Husky pipe everywhere and typically needs one slot leaner on the needle. I assume this is due to better pulse timing allowing less of the new charge to escape.
I will have in the near future a PV govenor spring selection available for you guys that will offer a progressive opening with the ability to adjust where the pv opens fully. I expect the kit to cost about $40 and be very easy to install and personallize.
Sorry for the long winded reply but I hope it helps explain my situation which while not universal certainly can't be an isolated example of the 125.
Walt
Walt, as I said before, I (we) really appreciate all the leg work. Amazing stuff. Great info. 
Walt, it is appreciated for all the hard work you have put into this problem that most 125 owners are having.
IMO you should be reimbursed by the manufacturer for your efforts.
I really feel that Husqvarna feel short on the R & D for this and kinda left us hanging.
( I didn't write this on the intent on starting an argument just wanted to state my personal opinion.)
IMO you should be reimbursed by the manufacturer for your efforts.
I really feel that Husqvarna feel short on the R & D for this and kinda left us hanging.
( I didn't write this on the intent on starting an argument just wanted to state my personal opinion.)
wallybean
Mini-Sponsor
Thanks guys. I will have the spring kit dialed in by the weekend, so I will report by Monday on the kit, what it contains, and list my actual cost so that you can make your plans accordingly. I just received a new batch of springs from Century Spring and have every expectation that I have found a solution to a progressive power valve opening. Of course I might have missed on my calculations and will need to adjust but I will let you know by the end of the weekend.
Walt
Walt
Norman Foley
Husqvarna
Pro Class
Strange... My bike is very linear through the low to mid. No bog on mine in the mid. I can ride technical hills and it just pulls right through. I can't say that if it's real steep, I don't clutch it a bit. I don't know if it's a combination of the EFM engagement and Power Now or what?
I run 450 main, 45 pilot, kit needle 3rd position, air screw 1.5 (adjust a bit for temp + or -) Power Now carb divider. Harvey the mechanic at Bottone's is a real 125/144 guy and on his advice I run the 45 pilot. I ride on the road at WOT a good bit doing enduros and enduro trail work, so he feels this is good insurance when you snap the throttle shut at high speeds. I get spooge, but plug is always nice and tan/ brown, even when lugging around arrowing enduro trail. I'm still interested in the whole spring thing!
I run 450 main, 45 pilot, kit needle 3rd position, air screw 1.5 (adjust a bit for temp + or -) Power Now carb divider. Harvey the mechanic at Bottone's is a real 125/144 guy and on his advice I run the 45 pilot. I ride on the road at WOT a good bit doing enduros and enduro trail work, so he feels this is good insurance when you snap the throttle shut at high speeds. I get spooge, but plug is always nice and tan/ brown, even when lugging around arrowing enduro trail. I'm still interested in the whole spring thing!
jsleeper
Husqvarna
AA Class
wallybean;66337 said:
Hi, thanks a lot. The long answer is definitely appreciated. I have experienced a bog. I do not feel it is as bad as the bog you had. But I will definitely be on the list for you PV spring kit. Have you thought about/is it possible to use two springs vs. one. Like a stacked shock spring. One small soft spring, and a longer stiffer spring. Maybe it does not work like that?
thanks
JS
wallybean
Mini-Sponsor
jsleeper,
That is where I am at. I didn't try this before simply because I was worried about binding, but when I was looking at this it was with the stock spring which limits the amount of room between it and the shafts of the govenor. With a lighter spring there is really not a lot of worry about binding if I can keep the specs on the interior spring farely tight. Unlike the a shock though the total travel of the govenor is only about 2/10ths". This limits the ability to use two springs working against each other with a shim between. What ends up being the answer(I think) is having a lighter larger spring that is your pre-load and determines when the pv opens and a stronger interior spring that is not pre-loaded and determines in conjunction with the outer spring when the power valve opens completely.
Let's all keep our fingers crossed and unless it snows tomorrow I will have answers,
Walt
PS. If I am mostly riding on the mx track like John01, I would only want the spring I am currently using as you want that hard hit and long pull with the pv open completely. For the rest of us with trees, rocks, water, and stttteeeeppp trails in our future the progressive approach should be a nice up grade.
That is where I am at. I didn't try this before simply because I was worried about binding, but when I was looking at this it was with the stock spring which limits the amount of room between it and the shafts of the govenor. With a lighter spring there is really not a lot of worry about binding if I can keep the specs on the interior spring farely tight. Unlike the a shock though the total travel of the govenor is only about 2/10ths". This limits the ability to use two springs working against each other with a shim between. What ends up being the answer(I think) is having a lighter larger spring that is your pre-load and determines when the pv opens and a stronger interior spring that is not pre-loaded and determines in conjunction with the outer spring when the power valve opens completely.
Let's all keep our fingers crossed and unless it snows tomorrow I will have answers,
Walt
PS. If I am mostly riding on the mx track like John01, I would only want the spring I am currently using as you want that hard hit and long pull with the pv open completely. For the rest of us with trees, rocks, water, and stttteeeeppp trails in our future the progressive approach should be a nice up grade.
wallybean
Mini-Sponsor
Norman,
I installed a power now in mine before I kitted it. In fact it was ordered before I got the bike considering my experience with the TMX in the past. I have to agree that the EFM helps but I can't imagine riding without one. Yes I am an old, lazy, fat man but I will still be riding when I am 65 too(pain no longer registers).
The fact that some of the 125's run great without a bog and yet some of us got stuck with the grand canyon bog is mystifying. I literally defy you to have ridden my 125 before the kit where I like to ride. Of course altitude makes a difference and I start at 4000' and all the good riding is above 6000'. I am completely convinced that the problem beyond a point was not jetting. I tried every combination of jets and needle positions and I could make it barely run at both extremes and at the happy medium it still had a bog that wasn't workable. My extremes of jetting went from a 50 pilot, kit needle raised 1/16" above the bottom clip position with spacers, and a 490 main to a 25 pilot, clip in the second position, and a 400 main(you can't get it to run on the needle at that position without risking seisure).
I once had a TORO rep who was adamant that the warranty problem I was having with a certain new reel configuration was my problem. "No one else is having these problems", 6 months later there is a general recall on all the particular reel parts because of this specific problem across the board. He no longer works for Toro. I am not saying that this is the situation here at all. Just problems like this always crack me up by reminding me of that factory denial. In this case there definitly is not a specific condition plaguing everyone. Norman isn't the only one who has a 125 that runs well without a bog. My goal while selfish in trying to get my motor to perform at the same level as the rest of the bike is also to provide a solution for everyone that is doable.
Walt
PS as I have said before I have way too much time on my hands in the winter.
I installed a power now in mine before I kitted it. In fact it was ordered before I got the bike considering my experience with the TMX in the past. I have to agree that the EFM helps but I can't imagine riding without one. Yes I am an old, lazy, fat man but I will still be riding when I am 65 too(pain no longer registers).
The fact that some of the 125's run great without a bog and yet some of us got stuck with the grand canyon bog is mystifying. I literally defy you to have ridden my 125 before the kit where I like to ride. Of course altitude makes a difference and I start at 4000' and all the good riding is above 6000'. I am completely convinced that the problem beyond a point was not jetting. I tried every combination of jets and needle positions and I could make it barely run at both extremes and at the happy medium it still had a bog that wasn't workable. My extremes of jetting went from a 50 pilot, kit needle raised 1/16" above the bottom clip position with spacers, and a 490 main to a 25 pilot, clip in the second position, and a 400 main(you can't get it to run on the needle at that position without risking seisure).
I once had a TORO rep who was adamant that the warranty problem I was having with a certain new reel configuration was my problem. "No one else is having these problems", 6 months later there is a general recall on all the particular reel parts because of this specific problem across the board. He no longer works for Toro. I am not saying that this is the situation here at all. Just problems like this always crack me up by reminding me of that factory denial. In this case there definitly is not a specific condition plaguing everyone. Norman isn't the only one who has a 125 that runs well without a bog. My goal while selfish in trying to get my motor to perform at the same level as the rest of the bike is also to provide a solution for everyone that is doable.
Walt
PS as I have said before I have way too much time on my hands in the winter.
Norman Foley
Husqvarna
Pro Class
Raisrx251 knows of two bikes with sequential serial numbers.... one has always run well, the other had the bog. Dirt Rider mag says the '10 has "The Bog". Very curious!
Walt,
I appreciate your hard work. I'm on the fence between a 2010 WR125 and 2010 YZ125. I've been following all of the WR125 threads with great interest.
It seems like the 2008 bikes ran cleanly. Did the new TMX carb get installed in 2009? If so, perhaps the new TMX carbs have more production variation leading to some folks having issues. I'm curious how a PWK carb would work on this bike. There are always other methods as you have discovered to solving performance issues. I'm just wondering if the root cause doesn't lie in the TMX carb itself. You definitely covered the jetting spectrum with your various trials. Perhaps the carb internal flow paths, part clearances, slide profile, etc.. is a source of the variation. Just thinking out loud here...
I appreciate your hard work. I'm on the fence between a 2010 WR125 and 2010 YZ125. I've been following all of the WR125 threads with great interest.
It seems like the 2008 bikes ran cleanly. Did the new TMX carb get installed in 2009? If so, perhaps the new TMX carbs have more production variation leading to some folks having issues. I'm curious how a PWK carb would work on this bike. There are always other methods as you have discovered to solving performance issues. I'm just wondering if the root cause doesn't lie in the TMX carb itself. You definitely covered the jetting spectrum with your various trials. Perhaps the carb internal flow paths, part clearances, slide profile, etc.. is a source of the variation. Just thinking out loud here...
wallybean
Mini-Sponsor
MattR,
Initially I thought the same thing and I wedged an airstriker in between the boots. I went through the same jetting progression and had all the same results, the pwk was a "little" better, but not the same huge difference in performance as between it and the old TMX. I think there is some other problem in there that is different between the 09's and previous years, but damned if I know what it is and the fact that some have it and some don't is really baffling.
The good news is that I made a few runs with the two spring combinations I had late last night and it is fantastic. I started with the stiffest small spring and weakest large spring and it works great but if anything it needs a slightly stiffer small spring. This is definitely the answer and you guys are going to love it. Very progressive and if anything I would like about another 1000 rpm's before the pv opens completely. So I was back on the internet ordering a new batch of stiffer small springs to try. The great thing about the small springs is they are about $5 apiece or less so this is going to be a very cheap kit. I can tell you that the kit will include 5 springs, 3 larger outside springs that you can run with or without the inner spring and a choice of 2 inner springs. You are going to love them. I was so excited when I got back to the garage, I didn't get to bed until 1 am(I know I am old).
Walt
Initially I thought the same thing and I wedged an airstriker in between the boots. I went through the same jetting progression and had all the same results, the pwk was a "little" better, but not the same huge difference in performance as between it and the old TMX. I think there is some other problem in there that is different between the 09's and previous years, but damned if I know what it is and the fact that some have it and some don't is really baffling.
The good news is that I made a few runs with the two spring combinations I had late last night and it is fantastic. I started with the stiffest small spring and weakest large spring and it works great but if anything it needs a slightly stiffer small spring. This is definitely the answer and you guys are going to love it. Very progressive and if anything I would like about another 1000 rpm's before the pv opens completely. So I was back on the internet ordering a new batch of stiffer small springs to try. The great thing about the small springs is they are about $5 apiece or less so this is going to be a very cheap kit. I can tell you that the kit will include 5 springs, 3 larger outside springs that you can run with or without the inner spring and a choice of 2 inner springs. You are going to love them. I was so excited when I got back to the garage, I didn't get to bed until 1 am(I know I am old).
Walt
dfeckel
Husqvarna
AA Class
I am super stoked about this spring kit, Walt!
My CR is an '08, and although I've not had the bog issues you have had, I have had some bogging that was particularly problematic during a hilly enduro. I think a progressive valve opening would be the bees knees for the tight stick farms of NJ. Sign me up for one of the kits!
My CR is an '08, and although I've not had the bog issues you have had, I have had some bogging that was particularly problematic during a hilly enduro. I think a progressive valve opening would be the bees knees for the tight stick farms of NJ. Sign me up for one of the kits!
wallybean
Mini-Sponsor
dfeckel,
I am still really jazzed. What I have now is the pvs initially opening about 5000 rpm, and fully opening at about 6500 rpm. It pulls strongly in this range but not katy bar the door type pull you get when it fully opens. I want to just raise the fully open rpm to about 7500 to 8000 rpm so that I can have a true rideable mid-range for tight stuff. My fat ass dyno is going to say that my 144 is making ~10-15 hp from idle to initial opening and then probably in the neighborhood of 25 hp partially open and somewhere in the 35 hp range WFO. Once again this is largely subjective just like my ass.
I hope to have a kit contents fully fleshed out by the 1st. What I will do is combine 3 large springs with 2 inner springs. The level of adjustability will be initial open from ~4500 rpm to ~7000 rpm. With fully open range from ~5000 rpm to almost never fully opening at WOT(10000 I don't think it is going to pull 11000 rpm without the pv fully open). I will include a spread sheet that allows you to pick what you want without doing the trial and error that I am already doing.
Walt
I am still really jazzed. What I have now is the pvs initially opening about 5000 rpm, and fully opening at about 6500 rpm. It pulls strongly in this range but not katy bar the door type pull you get when it fully opens. I want to just raise the fully open rpm to about 7500 to 8000 rpm so that I can have a true rideable mid-range for tight stuff. My fat ass dyno is going to say that my 144 is making ~10-15 hp from idle to initial opening and then probably in the neighborhood of 25 hp partially open and somewhere in the 35 hp range WFO. Once again this is largely subjective just like my ass.
I hope to have a kit contents fully fleshed out by the 1st. What I will do is combine 3 large springs with 2 inner springs. The level of adjustability will be initial open from ~4500 rpm to ~7000 rpm. With fully open range from ~5000 rpm to almost never fully opening at WOT(10000 I don't think it is going to pull 11000 rpm without the pv fully open). I will include a spread sheet that allows you to pick what you want without doing the trial and error that I am already doing.
Walt
wallybean
Mini-Sponsor
No I am doing speed in 6th gear using a gearing calculator. It is pretty accurate so far, have checked my speedo with my gps unit a couple of times and they agree almost to the mph. It is also much easier to pin point opening and fully opening with the load on the motor in 6th. Before the 144 EG kit I couldn't do this in 4th, 5th, or 6th simply because it wouldn't pull enough to open the pv starting with it closed in those higher gears
.
Walt
.Walt
wallybean
Mini-Sponsor
JS,
I set them according to what another person who works for Husky told me(mine were perfect). Just call your dealer and get the spec. It just didn't act like a starvation or a flooding problem. When I was able to take the jetting from completely lean to completely rich and find a happy medium where the bike ran clean and the plug looked good and still could not eliminate the bog with either the TMX or the PWK I had to make the make the deduction that it wasn't jetting and go on to try to solve the problem from different angles. I still can't tell you why mine had that vicious bog. I have some theories but theories are like bung holes and we all have one and if we are smart we keep them out of the light of day. I just don't have a laboratory where I can actually sit down and study the problem in a scientific fashion. I just try to find a way around it. When you get my spring kit you will be able to set the PV to open at about where the bog kicks in and eliminate it. If you do a 144 kit you will be able to raise that point and you will love that motor.
I really don't think it is a carb problem. When I installed the power now it had little to no effect on the bog. So increased air speed and flow over the jets isn't really an issue I think. What that leaves is a problem with the V-force 3 reeds(doubtful) and their positioning in the case or some type of a resonance issue in the combustion chamber. OK I am going to expose my bung hole. I think that there is enough space above the Power valves but below the top of the exhaust port to allow enough exhaust to move into this space and at certain rpms and it resonates back into the combustion chamber disrupting the smooth transition of gasses from the transfer ports into the combustion chamber. The initial PV's that were used in the 09 motors were the CR valves from the past few years. They sealed fairly well. The new valves were cut square on the far ends leaving a space for this gas to escape and solved the worst of the bog for many. Obviously there are enough individual discrepancies among the different parts that some seal to well still and yield the resonance. By allowing the power valve to partially open at this rpm you defeat the resonance and voila no bog. The trick is to only open the PV's enough to defeat the resonance and yield a nice strong mid-range that transitions into the bat out of hell when they open fully.
Have you ever read a larger load of BS in your life. But that is kind of what I thought and what led me to change the way the pv opens. I am probably just lucky and have managed to alleviate the symptoms without even scratching the surface of the real cause.
Sorry for another BLAH BLAH BLAH post,
Walt
I set them according to what another person who works for Husky told me(mine were perfect). Just call your dealer and get the spec. It just didn't act like a starvation or a flooding problem. When I was able to take the jetting from completely lean to completely rich and find a happy medium where the bike ran clean and the plug looked good and still could not eliminate the bog with either the TMX or the PWK I had to make the make the deduction that it wasn't jetting and go on to try to solve the problem from different angles. I still can't tell you why mine had that vicious bog. I have some theories but theories are like bung holes and we all have one and if we are smart we keep them out of the light of day. I just don't have a laboratory where I can actually sit down and study the problem in a scientific fashion. I just try to find a way around it. When you get my spring kit you will be able to set the PV to open at about where the bog kicks in and eliminate it. If you do a 144 kit you will be able to raise that point and you will love that motor.
I really don't think it is a carb problem. When I installed the power now it had little to no effect on the bog. So increased air speed and flow over the jets isn't really an issue I think. What that leaves is a problem with the V-force 3 reeds(doubtful) and their positioning in the case or some type of a resonance issue in the combustion chamber. OK I am going to expose my bung hole. I think that there is enough space above the Power valves but below the top of the exhaust port to allow enough exhaust to move into this space and at certain rpms and it resonates back into the combustion chamber disrupting the smooth transition of gasses from the transfer ports into the combustion chamber. The initial PV's that were used in the 09 motors were the CR valves from the past few years. They sealed fairly well. The new valves were cut square on the far ends leaving a space for this gas to escape and solved the worst of the bog for many. Obviously there are enough individual discrepancies among the different parts that some seal to well still and yield the resonance. By allowing the power valve to partially open at this rpm you defeat the resonance and voila no bog. The trick is to only open the PV's enough to defeat the resonance and yield a nice strong mid-range that transitions into the bat out of hell when they open fully.
Have you ever read a larger load of BS in your life. But that is kind of what I thought and what led me to change the way the pv opens. I am probably just lucky and have managed to alleviate the symptoms without even scratching the surface of the real cause.
Sorry for another BLAH BLAH BLAH post,
Walt