Custom Ratios for Gearbox

[TonyWilliams]

I'm announcing an exploratory committee (of me) to find out who would pony up real, hard cold cash to go in as a group purchase to get some gears produced.

Here's the deal. I think I have an experienced, moto-centric dude who can cut gears for us, but I promised him that I would do my best to make a group purchase (to hopefully put a few more dollars in his pocket than he is going to get out of me).

This effort is, first and foremost, in support of our 2010 TE-510. I do not know what other bikes that might fit. Obviously, not the 2011 BMW motor bikes (449/511).

I told the guy that I would send him one of my 510 gearboxes so that he can get a good handle on what he's up against to make these.

Your thoughts are appreciated.

Tony

 

[rancher1]

This has been looked at before http://www.cafehusky.com/threads/overdrive-6th-gear.14882/ seems like people want it but do not want to split cases and pay for gears.

 

[OlderHuskyRider]

I would love to have a wide ratio 6 speed, but combined with all the other issues/obstacles with this bike, the expense and trouble is just not worth it. Hope you can get some satisfaction Tony.

 

[7point62]

I'd be interested in a pair of 6th gear cogs Tony...

 

[TonyWilliams]

The other issues with the bike really do hold Husky back. I hope BMW has addressed much of this with the new/old G450X/TE449/511.

It will probably take me a month to get to a thumbs up/down on this. I look at it this way. You can buy a new bike and fix virtually all the issues prior to riding it once. It's well documented about the poor quality control and key weak features. But the gear ratio dilemma does not have any fix.

 

[Fast1]

Wow.. my TE510 has not had any significant issues and with 15/47 sprockets works well for dual sport. Would a taller 5th and 6th be nice.. Yes.. but after 8000 miles mine has worked just fine if I keep it under 70 mph for long durations and I still haven't even had to adjust the valve lash.

 

[TonyWilliams]

What if you planned to ride over 100mph, over a 1000 mile course, in one day?

 

[Fast1]

What if you planned to ride over 100mph, over a 1000 mile course, in one day?

so tell me where is this course, ride, country that I can ride at 100 mph for 1000 miles and finish in a day or 10 hours on my TE510? I can't even ride my FJR 1300 (land based missile) on pavement like that unless I want to take a visit behind bars, loose my DL and employment or get shot for not stopping and evading the LEOs. Not sure if you have tried different gearing but anything beyond a 15/47 will hurt your top end. The motor does not have enough torque to turn larger gear ratios at top end. Sure you can cruise at 75 mph with lower rpm but getting over 100 mph in dirt won't happen easily, at least not when I went taller with a 15/45.

now what were the issues you referred to but failed to mention?

 

[TonyWilliams]

Baja, Mexico. In 1967, a Husqvarna completed the approximate 1000 miles course in 28:48

Now it's done between 10 and 20 hours, depending on the actual length.




Not sure which issues you're referring to, but the ones I was referring to are the various shortcomings in the machine, from the quality of production in Varese, to some the technical issues discussed on this and other forums ad nauseum.

The point of the thread, however, is concerning a more KTM like gear ratio'd transmission.

 

[Fast1]

Have you even had your Husky over 100 mph in the dirt? I'm betting you haven't hit anything over 95 mph ever in dirt, that is GPS speed. And as far as KTMs, from my experience, they aren't going to be staying with you in acceleration nor top end. Would they cruise at 75 mph with less rpm, sure but hit the throttle from 75 to 95 mph and they are not going to stay with you. Plus the orange bike has a lower rpm limiter than the Husky requiring a wider gear ratio. I'm sure you know the KTM is slug with factory gearing. All the kool aid drinkers change (lower) the gearing to be more suitable with some form of improved acceleration.

The 1967 course length was only 849 miles. The 2010 winner finished in 19 hours 20 minutes. So thats an average of a bit over 50 mph for 2010. Clean up your stats, they are getting very miss-leading.

Ever check the gearing on those Honda 450s that seem to walk away with the race?

 

[TonyWilliams]

You seem to want to debate nuances, and I don't really care to play. But, I'll address your issues. The 2010 winner in Baja 2010 was not even a motorcycle.

No, I've never been over 100mph on any Husky, or ANY dirt bike, nor did I claim to have. I specified 100mph, meaning (to me) a top speed to attain. Anything I said about KTM.... well, let's just say that was a red herring for this debate. If I wanted (another) KTM, I'd go buy one. So, let's drop KTM BS, except to compare the gear ratios.

My chief goal is to do anything possible to make the engine survive. Part of that goal is to not have the engine red-lined for any part of the event. Your 50mph average is neato info, but the engine is not operating at 50mph. It's going from idle in the pit, to just about tapped out. Whatever power the bike makes now is exactly how much I intend to run, primarily, again, out of durability concerns. If that means the bike can "only" go 85, or 95, that's great.

This week, we put on bigger radiators (Fluidyne) and bigger water pump, and still had the bike overheat riding from SoCal to Las Vegas. Not at speed, but in the sand, in 100F heat. Less than 200 miles per day. There's more work to do.

Yes, I have checked those ratios on the Honda. Yes, they are wider spaced than both the legacy Husky, and the BMWusky:

BMW G450X.... KTM 530EXC---TE 2010 510---TE 2011 511..CRF450X


Primary.......................................2.74 (63/23)...............2.739 (63/23)
1st 2.46:1----------2.57...............2.000. . . . . ..2.286.....2.231 (29/13)
2nd 1.71:1---------1.88................1.611. . . . . . 1.875.....1.625 (26/16)
3rd 1.35:1---------1.47................1.333. . . . . . .1.533.....1.235 (21/17)
4th 1.04:1---------1.18................1.086. . . . . . .1.250.....1.000 (19/19)
5th 0.88:1---------0.96................0.920. . . . . . .1.043.....0.826 (19/23)
6th----------------0.81................0.814. . . . . ...0.917........................
Final..........................................3.615 (13/47)...............3.923 (51/13)

 

[Slowpoke]

This has been a regularly occurring discussion topic & for good reason.
The gearing combination on all the modern husky 4ts was designed for closed course WEC style events- and they work really good for that; great point to point acceleration up to about 60 mph. The problem is that the entire rest of the world(everyone outside of the euro racing circuit) doesn't ride the bikes that way(all the time). They may sell them as closed course race bikes('street legal' wink wink, with lights), but the clear majority of buyers don't use them that way.

These bikes have the inate capability to be the most versatile dirt bikes out there- except for being hamstrung by the transmissions on them. Changing sprockets is not the proper solution as you're always making huge compromises.
Even my TE 250 has more than enough grunt to toodle along a highway at 60 mph at 6000 RPM, when geared to the moon. It will easily pull 85-90mph with that gearing. However to do that, your first gear is now double the stock ratio & the bike doesn't work near as good in tight stuff.
An extended 5th and 6th would let the bike rip out of corners up 40+ mph(which covers 90+% of conditions) and still scoot nicely down the roads.

This would have been best solved at the design stage with a cassette style tranny & swappable ratios and possibly a 7th gear, or a dual range tranny.
I'd happily buy an extended 5th and 6th ratios, but really don't like the idea of having to spend 20+ hours & some special tools & a whole new gasket set to install them.
It's been an issue that's been bitched to Husky for years. They built the TXC for the North American market because the NA market asked for it & it's sold well. I don't know why they can't/don't learn from that & offer a 6sp WR tranny(close ratio 1,2,3,4,wider 5th, even wider 6th) on these bikes from the Factory. I guarantee they'd be surprised at how many would sell.

 

[TonyWilliams]

My son yesterday on a shake down ride, Death Valley, California:

 

[Fast1]

what sprockets are you running during shake down tests? What is the top speed you have hit with them in the dirt?

It puzzles me as to why some have their 510 overheat and I've never had mine overheat in 8000 miles, some of which was in very hot weather riding sand. Have you had overheating with the stock tank or just the oversize? I'm wondering if there were changes in the ECU from 08 to 10. The 510 will pull mid 90s in the dirt.


I've run this road mid 90's with 15/47 gearing.. no overheating at all. The 15/47 gearing gives you about a 9.4 mph crawl speed at 2000 rpm which is only 1.2 mph faster than the stock 13/47.

I have also been down this trail with 15/45 gearing which was 50 miles of my 285 ride that day and never had issues with too tall of first gear.

 

[TonyWilliams]

What's the elevation at these riding spots?

 

[Slowpoke]

Them trails look like interstates........ See if that 15-45 would work as well on rocky, gnarly tight singletrack, with a bunch of log crossings.....

Ideally these transmissions should have a pretty low and close 1,2,3,4 (ie. what they come with stock), then add 10% or so to the 5th and an additional 10-15% to 6th. That way, the bikes can still get off corners & up to 40+ mph fast, handle technical tight trails, yet still cruise down roads at 55-65 no sweat.

 

[TrailPunter]

I've been debating this very same thing ever since I bought my TE-250 in 06'. I did not purchase one of the new 449/511 TE's for the same reason. My 250 is a blast as a trail bike. Yes, it's been on 200 mile one day rides. However the 09' TE-610 I bought is so much better at extended multi-day rides. I looked all over for the "one size fits all" dirt bike, and for me that means two bikes. Both with plates. Nasty single track, or miles of desert whoops the 250 gets the nod. The 450 mile Death Valley D/S run that Countdown ran in February was a 610 ride. Would I like a taller 5th/6th in the 250? Yes, however It's a darn nice bike just the way it is.

 

[Fast1]

Them trails look like interstates........ See if that 15-45 would work as well on rocky, gnarly tight singletrack, with a bunch of log crossings.....
.

Since you have never been down the Deadhorse trail in WI I'll forgive your ignorance. Logs..LOL... try 1.5' diameter boulders hidden under a few feet of muddy water along with 1' deep ruts that you can not see for 50 miles. Take a trip out to WI so I've got someone to ride with down this trial. Don't know many if any that will attempt it on anything other than a big tired quad. Maybe you missed my previous posts but I don't like the 15/45 because it kills power and acceleration above 75 mph. I tested it out on a 600 mile ride one weekend and haven't used it since.

maybe a little no track would be better?

 

[Fast1]

I've been debating this very same thing ever since I bought my TE-250 in 06'. I did not purchase one of the new 449/511 TE's for the same reason. My 250 is a blast as a trail bike. Yes, it's been on 200 mile one day rides. However the 09' TE-610 I bought is so much better at extended multi-day rides. I looked all over for the "one size fits all" dirt bike, and for me that means two bikes. Both with plates. Nasty single track, or miles of desert whoops the 250 gets the nod. The 450 mile Death Valley D/S run that Countdown ran in February was a 610 ride. Would I like a taller 5th/6th in the 250? Yes, however It's a darn nice bike just the way it is.

The TE250 has different gearing (lower) than the TE450/510.

 

[Fast1]

What's the elevation at these riding spots?

They are roughly 800 feet. However the high humidity kills performance. When ever I would ride the dunes in Glamis I'd have to richen up the fuel metering in comparison to MN or WI.