CCT: 11 clicks out at 3k miles?

[WoodsChick]

11 clicks out at 3000 miles? Can that be right?? Depending on how you actually count the teeth (does the first tooth count? the last one??) it could be 10 or 11. There are only 14 teeth total on the whole thing. Surely something is amiss here...

Regardless, I guess I should order up a new CC...and maybe some gears...although 3k miles seems like an awful short time to be replacing a CC...

Any thoughts on converting to a manual CCT?



WoodsChick

 

[dukepilot]

Good thing you checked it. 11 teeth out at 3k miles would indicate that your cam chain has stretched and should be replaced too. A manual tensioner sounds like a good idea. I have over twice that many miles on my SM 610 with the stock CCT and I'm only out 7 teeth when I checked it at around 6k miles. I've heard of others having to replace their chain before 10k miles. At least one of those was due to improper installation of the CCT after checking it. Not sure what is causing the chain to stretch, some say its a crappy chain, others say its the CCT. There is more info on this at the adv rider site and at supermoto junkie.

11 clicks out at 3000 miles? Can that be right?? Depending on how you actually count the teeth (does the first tooth count? the last one??) it could be 10 or 11. There are only 14 teeth total on the whole thing. Surely something is amiss here...

Regardless, I guess I should order up a new CCT...and maybe some gears...although 3k miles seems like an awful short time to be replacing a CCT...

Any thoughts on converting to a manual CCT?



WoodsChick

 

[Howard70]

11 clicks out at 3000 miles? ....Surely something is amiss here...

Regardless, I guess I should order up a new CCT...WoodsChick

Hello Woodschick:

I'm no expert on cam chains nor tensioners, but I read somewhere that you can get a false reading if you remove the CCT incorrectly to check it. Something about which bolts you take out first. I can't find what I read now, but you might look into that. It would be great if the problem was that simple...

If the CCT is correctly removed and checked and is truly at 11 teeth then I think it is the chain that requires replacement, not the tensioner. The 2008 shop manual has a short description about how to read the teeth. Let me know you need to have that section extracted and sent to you.

Good Luck!

Howard Snell

 

[WoodsChick]

Thanks, dukepilot and Howard. I guess I should have been more clear in stating that I need a new cam chain and not just a new CCT I mentioned the gears simply because it's ingrained in me to never put a new chain on old gears/sprockets, etc.

I've got a shop manual for the `07, I guess I should look at it a little more closely to make sure it was removed correctly.

The bike runs like a top and doesn't make any more noise now than it did the day I brought it home...which isn't saying much


WoodsChick

 

[Owen J]

From what I can tell you probably don't need to replace the gears (just the chain - though I can see the logic in changing both!) and you almost certainly don't need to replace the CCT (unless you are switching over to a manual one). The jury's still out on manual CCT's - some swear by them, others say you're better off with the auto. There's good info on supermotojunkie and ADV rider so do plenty of research. There's a thread on SMJ that explains which bolts have to be removed first and replaced last when checking your CCT. If you reassemble in the wrong order you can cause your chain to prematurely stretch. It's possible that you may have done this if you've checked it a few times before. The service life of these items does tend to vary but yours is not the first I've heard that's lasted this long......(sorry!)

 

[WoodsChick]

From what I can tell you probably don't need to replace the gears (just the chain - though I can see the logic in changing both!) and you almost certainly don't need to replace the CCT (unless you are switching over to a manual one). The jury's still out on manual CCT's - some swear by them, others say you're better off with the auto. There's good info on supermotojunkie and ADV rider so do plenty of research. There's a thread on SMJ that explains which bolts have to be removed first and replaced last when checking your CCT. If you reassemble in the wrong order you can cause your chain to prematurely stretch. It's possible that you may have done this if you've checked it a few times before. The service life of these items does tend to vary but yours is not the first I've heard that's lasted this long......(sorry!)

Ok, Ok...I know I don't need to replace the CCT. I edited my original post to more accurately reflect what I was trying to say.
I apologize for not being more clear/accurate with my wording...

This is the first time I've checked the CCT, and yes it was removed in the proper order and installed in the proper order. It has never been in the shop so I know no one else has had the opportunity to mess it up, either. I wasn't even going to check it, since the mileage was so low, but the valves were getting checked so I figured it was as good a time as any to see what it looked like. I'm glad I did...

I guess I'm just having a hard time wrapping my head around having to split the cases to replace the chain after only 3000 miles. Not even 3000! It's something like 2800 and change I mean, it ain't like I'm racing the damned thing every weekend. Yes, I do some spirited street riding on occasion, but really, most of those miles took place in the dirt. I was well aware of the overly-energetic CCT on the 610's before I bought one, but 3000 miles is ridiculous...

I will order a new chain tomorrow, and I'm going to also go on the assumption that since it was only on the gears for a measly 3000 miles that the gears are ok and I won't need to replace them, too...does that sound reasonable? Or am I being optimistic here? I guess I'll need a flywheel puller, too, unless Eric has something that will work. He's made a few custom flywheel pullers for other bikes we've owned, so maybe he can help me keep the drama/cost to a minimum.

And now for the $64,000 question: Would you ride this bike down in Baja in 5 days with the CCT out 11 clicks with slightly less than 3000 miles on the motor? I don't want to lunch my reed valve...or anything else in there.



SlightlyAngryChick

 

[MattR]

Here is what my CCT looked like at 3815 miles:

Here is the procedure to check the CCT (see my notes located on left side of picture). This information was not in the manual, but I added it for clarity:

If you removed it correctly and it is at 11 clicks, then you may be already rubbing on the reed valve. I would remove the left side ignition cover and take a look behind the flywheel. I've seen pics from others at 10/11 clicks when it has contacted and started to grind it away.

This would be important to know because if you are ordering the cam chain, you may need to order the reed valve, plate, and retaining screws (if it is damaged).

Here is the "how-to" that Dirtyhucker made on SMJ. I believe there is also a 16 min video posted by him (or someone else).
http://www.supermotojunkie.com/showthread.php?t=60551&highlight=cam+chain

Note: You do not need to split the engine cases. See the "how-to" above. The cam chain can be removed/installed by removing the head, ignition cover, and flywheel. Yes, there is a couple hours of work involved but it looks do-able by anyone who can adjust their valves.


EDIT: Here is the video posted on ADV Rider. It was posted by Geek. I tried to post the embedded video but it didn't work. So here is the direct link:
http://vimeo.com/2138824

If that didn't work, here is the link to Geek's posting on ADV Rider.
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8274079&highlight=chain+video#post8274079

 

[WoodsChick]

Here is what my CCT looked like at 3815 miles:

Here is the procedure to check the CCT (see my notes located on left side of picture). This information was not in the manual, but I added it for clarity:

If you removed it correctly and it is at 11 clicks, then you may be already rubbing on the reed valve. I would remove the left side ignition cover and take a look behind the flywheel. I've seen pics from others at 10/11 clicks when it has contacted and started to grind it away.

This would be important to know because if you are ordering the cam chain, you may need to order the reed valve, plate, and retaining screws (if it is damaged).

Here is the "how-to" that Dirtyhucker made on SMJ. I believe there is also a 16 min video posted by him (or someone else).
http://www.supermotojunkie.com/showthread.php?t=60551&highlight=cam+chain

Note: You do not need to split the engine cases. See the "how-to" above. The cam chain can be removed/installed by removing the head, ignition cover, and flywheel. Yes, there is a couple hours of work involved but it looks do-able by anyone who can adjust their valves.


EDIT: Here is the video posted on ADV Rider. It was posted by Geek. I tried to post the embedded video but it didn't work. So here is the direct link:
http://vimeo.com/2138824

If that didn't work, here is the link to Geek's posting on ADV Rider.
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8274079&highlight=chain+video#post8274079

Jeez, MattR...can't you get a little more indepth than that?
Wow! Thanks for all the info! I've read a ton of stuff on SMJ and ADV, even before I bought my bike, but I guess I just figured I'd have a little more time before I actually had to deal with the chain issue. It was removed exactly as you described, and replaced exactly as you described, so I don't think I'm getting a false reading.

I'm bummed about it, but relieved that I won't have to split the cases.
I'm sure we'll have no problem getting the job done. I hope I don't have to buy a flywheel puller...


Thanks again for the information


WoodsChick

 

[MattR]

Jeez, MattR...can't you get a little more indepth than that?
Wow! Thanks for all the info!

Glad that I could help out. I have been following this cam chain issue on several sites. So, I knew where to find the links fairly quickly. Good luck with the replacement. Keep us updated on how things go.

 

[rajobigguy]

After thinking about this for while now I'm not entirely sure that there would be any damage to the motor even if the reed valve got completely wiped out. The reed valve is just sort of a carry over from the old 570 MX engine. The newer TE has a full pressure pump that feeds the mains and if I'm not mistaken also pressurizes the cam shaft journals. There is probably enough leak off from the cam journals to adequately lube the rockers so I'm not sure that you even need the reed valve.
Maybe someone with more intimate knowledge of the TE lube system, like say for instance George from Uptite could better answer this but I kinda think that the reed valve is like a human appendix- just something left over from a previous incarnation.

 

[Flying Trash Can]

W/C I'd check the thing again. The spring has to come off first then the rest of it comes out............

I know you said you did it right but I'd check twice anyway.

Mine was fine after 3k.

 

[Fritzcoinc]

CCT

When you pull the CCT from the engine does it not go to full extension?
Thats what mine did ( see photo, plunger that contacts chain guide is fully extended) . Of course it is different from the newer models. But anyway, you fully compress the plunger to re-install then release the plunger.

It seems to me on the type you have the proceedure to check the CCT extension/chain wear would go something like this:
Disassemble and remove the plunger spring.
Gently press the plunger against the cam chain guide.
Carefully remove the CCT and count the notches.
Install with the plunger fully retracted.
Install spring.

 

[Flying Trash Can]

So whats the final word on this?

 

[CrankN]

Hey Woods chick, how did you go on the replacement of you chain?

Just counted mine. 9 clicks :/

i don't wanna do it... i don't have the time but we'll see......

 

[PALMER84ONE]

Hey Woods chick, how did you go on the replacement of you chain?

Just counted mine. 9 clicks :/

i don't wanna do it... i don't have the time but we'll see......

There is a great how to in supermotjunkie for the 610.
http://www.supermotojunkie.com/showthread.php?t=60551&highlight=timing+chain

 

[mtne]

I'm just shy of 3k and checked..... I think it was at 7 clicks. I'd agree with the others to go ahead and throw it back in and roll it through again. I did that just to see if it was consistent in the reading I got.

 

[Rockchucker22]

I'm just shy of 3k and checked..... I think it was at 7 clicks. I'd agree with the others to go ahead and throw it back in and roll it through again. I did that just to see if it was consistent in the reading I got.

Go ahead and throw it back in and get a cc on order.

 

[restukey]

I did over 16k on my last cam chain. It is out right now, as I am doing the top-end. I put the MCCT when the cam chain was 3k miles old. I could have gotten a little more mileage on it, but the motor was apart. I got a little over 7k miles on my first cam chain. I am at 23.5k miles on my sm610.

I don't think this is an oil related problem. More likely the cheap spring that governs the tension. It could be too strong? I have heard of people being 11 clicks out with less than 3k too. The chain doesn't have a lot of room to move with the close proximity of the reed valve. Comparing old and new chains doesn't yeild much to the eye.

 

[Xcuvator]

restukey, What are you finding at 23k? Bore still good, valves etc?

 

[CrankN]

X2 restukey

My mechanic told me the motor should be right for up to 70,000km's. Not sure if he meant 'until top end rebuild' or 'until complete rebuild' or etc.

Um, i gotta remember that your 23k is 37,000kms.