4T Fiasco

[Rob578]

Check out this article

http://articles.superhunky.com/4/106

 

[Vinduro]

Traditionally Honda has been a 4 stroke company. I don't know if they have had anything to do with todays problems with having way too high a strung 4 stroke. I like 4 strokes. Aircooled, low RPM, torque monsters. They can be competitive that way. I have raced against CR500 hondas on a XR600R and won. I loved the XR600, I just wish they could have shaved off 20lbs.
I love aircooled 2 stokes too but I am now on an new 2011 WR150 and am loving it. I got it for the ease of maintainace and handling. BUT, I love how this motor runs too.

 

[ghte]

I find that the comments on the Maico are at the margin an embellishment. The motors had real grunt, however their brakes and suspension were pretty poor by todays standard.

 

[tommytwostroke]

If that is all it took for the impending demise of the two smoke, certainly it can be just as easy to bring them forefront again. Petitions to OEM companies with a good write up by....Rick Siemen?? Any takers----Bueller

 

[LawnDartMike]

Not true parity but a start: http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/review-ama-pro-racing-rule-change.html

 

[Coffee]

I love aircooled 2 stokes too but I am now on an new 2011 WR150 and am loving it. I got it for the ease of maintainace and handling. BUT, I love how this motor runs too.

Awesome!

I was curious.

 

[Vinduro]

I find that the comments on the Maico are at the margin an embellishment. The motors had real grunt, however their brakes and suspension were pretty poor by todays standard.

Actually , Maico suspension was pretty good even by today's standards. Brakes sucked.

 

[Motosportz]

I find that the comments on the Maico are at the margin an embellishment. The motors had real grunt, however their brakes and suspension were pretty poor by todays standard.

Totally agree. If the suspension on that Maico is better there is something terribly wrong with the Suzuki he was riding. I like old bikes but lets get serious. also the shot of the new YZ450F with that caption that it needs taken apart every 10 hours is goofy. I have seen 99 YZF400 with a million miles and still stock and never opened up. One of the most reliable modern 4st's going. This article is slanted hard towards 2 strokes. IMHO it would be tough to say straight up if 2 or 4 strokes are better but i think the current 4st have really proven themselves to be GREAT MX/SX bikes. The power and traction as key to clearing some of todays stuff. Peopel are free to race a 250 2 stroke and choose not to and if try are not competitive. At local races where you can race anything 90% of the field is 4 st. It is an interesting conversation. BTW i would say it was Doug Henry / Yamaha that killed 2 strokes not Honda, they were late to the party.

 

[Slowpoke]

Totally agree. If the suspension on that Maico is better there is something terribly wrong with the Suzuki he was riding. I like old bikes but lets get serious. also the shot of the new YZ450F with that caption that it needs taken apart every 10 hours is goofy. I have seen 99 YZF400 with a million miles and still stock and never opened up. One of the most reliable modern 4st's going. This article is slanted hard towards 2 strokes. IMHO it would be tough to say straight up if 2 or 4 strokes are better but i think the current 4st have really proven themselves to be GREAT MX/SX bikes. The power and traction as key to clearing some of todays stuff. Peopel are free to race a 250 2 stroke and choose not to and if try are not competitive. At local races where you can race anything 90% of the field is 4 st. It is an interesting conversation. BTW i would say it was Doug Henry / Yamaha that killed 2 strokes not Honda, they were late to the party.

Also, for the average off-road guy, the overall operation & maintenance costs are now pretty close between a competition 4t and and a roughly comparable 2T. It's not like it was in 2003 anymore. The 4ts are lasting longer and are now much cheaper to repair than they used to be. I did a cost comparison on our clubs website a year or two ago & covered all the bases as best I could.
It's pretty much 'ride what you like' nowadays. The '4ts are way too expensive' arguments don't have near as much validity anymore, if at all.

 

[Motosportz]

Also, for the average off-road guy, the overall operation & maintenance costs are now pretty close between a competition 4t and and a roughly comparable 2T. It's not like it was in 2003 anymore. The 4ts are lasting longer and are now much cheaper to repair than they used to be. I did a cost comparison on our clubs website a year or two ago & covered all the bases as best I could.
It's pretty much 'ride what you like' nowadays. The '4ts are way too expensive' arguments don't have near as much validity anymore, if at all.

I agree especially if you add smashed pipes and 2 stroke oil into the equation. Personally I am liking 2st for tighter stuff and 4st for more open stuff.

 

[LawnDartMike]

Costs basically depend on the rider. If you are the average Joe weekend warrior that buys a used bike and doesn't do the required maintenance then the 4t can end up costing you quite a bit more. And I think those are the horror stories that keep the myth alive. But any well maintained 4t will last just as a 2t. I just like the simplicity of the 2t. Most of us only have one do it all bike and have to make the choice.

 

[Vinduro]

I totally disagree that maintenance costs are the same. Modern 2 strokes are MUCH cheaper to maintain. Even if you have to do a rebuild more often than on a 4stroke. Rebuild costs on the 4 stroke are much higher and if you have a failure then the damage is usually catastophic. Just a fact. That is why I am back on 2 strokes after 23 years on a 4strokes. I am hanging on to my Honda XRs as they are reliable and fast enough to be competitive.

 

[ohmygewd]

Also, for the average off-road guy, the overall operation & maintenance costs are now pretty close between a competition 4t and and a roughly comparable 2T. It's not like it was in 2003 anymore. The 4ts are lasting longer and are now much cheaper to repair than they used to be. I did a cost comparison on our clubs website a year or two ago & covered all the bases as best I could.
It's pretty much 'ride what you like' nowadays. The '4ts are way too expensive' arguments don't have near as much validity anymore, if at all.

I have to disagree with this and a matter of IMO, the average Joe needs to carefully maintain their modern 4t's especially Jap MX 4t's converted into trail bikes, what they really want is the reliability of a XR or DRZ but the performance of racebike like KTMYZRMZKXF 450.
We had a pretty heated debate on this very topic last night with consumption of alcoholic beverages, but the overriding factor was and will also be the maintenance or easy of maintenance that a 2t delivers over a 4t - unless you are mechanically minded then the maintenance cost of a 4t is a little more than a 2t as you are excluding shop labour but the ease still favours a 2t.
When l talk modern day l'm talking 450's as, and Motosportz pointed out, the original KTM/WR/YZ400's were pretty sturdy but heavy so began the journey for more HP's and lightness and of course the trade off will be shorter lifespan (CRF250/450 valve's comes to mind) on components...plus many wrung the neck of 4t's past the rev limiter too often and wondered what all that smoke was.
I'm not a 4t hater as l loved the ride on a FE390 but the ease of maintenance of a 2t keeps me from ditching my 1996 WR360...plus it's lighter and has no annoying engine braking (though would love some coming down hills )

I think LawnDirtMike summed it up "Most of us only have one do it all bike and have to make the choice."

PS. Kelly, Honda have been behind the 4t push for years as they have always prided themselves a 4t manufacturer and couldn't wait for the 4t rule to be allowed in MotoGp to kill off 500cc, then 250 and now 125's - even though the big H had the best 2t's on the planet at every capacity - go figure.

 

[Motosportz]

I think it really depends on the rider and where you ride etc. I know guys who trail ride CRF250X's that put a lot of mile a year and have 05's that have never been apart. A MX dude bouncing off the rev limiter for half the track is going to need valves and a rod once a year. So it is really hard to say. I know some guys who went to a 4t as they were tired of buying oil and pipes. In the PNW you can ride the 1-3rd gear stuff forever and are hardly ever reving it. Rode like this the new 4t can last a LONG time. The Yamahas are still XR reliable if you trail ride and change the oil. I have owned piles of both and do not find ether more costly. I do have a small pile of pipes and empty 2 stoke oil cans and that = money. Most my bike costs go into tires and gas / oil. Then comes bearings and filers. Yeah, 4t have more parts and are a little more complicated but i find them pretty EZ to work on (I don't own Hondas

) IMHO and for me it is a wash. I ahve more issue with the age of the bike than 2 or 4 st. Old bikes always need a bunch of stuff.

 

[water racer]

My first love are two strokes, but that article is filled with half truths like most political arguments these days. The japanese are reminding me of the detroit auto makers from the 70's and 80's(this is what we are going to build and you will buy it). Thank goodness for KTM, Husqvarna and GAS GAS for continuing development of the 2t, and I believe they are delighted the japs are giving away that market share. I am loving my 125 in tight stuff but am seriously considering a 4 stroke for more open stuff. Don't want to wrestle a 4t out of a tight spot, but the 125 seems a little uncomfortable trying to cruise down a fire road.
GP

 

[ohmygewd]

CRF-X's where different...SS Valves vs Ti Valves.

I think the argument could go on for eon's (like it has)...imagine when a bio diesel dirtbike enters the market and the electric bikes could sustain 1 week charge

 

[Slowpoke]

Here's some thoughts on the issue I posted in this thread ( http://www.odsc.on.ca/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=15514 ) a while back:

Some of the issues raised by the article need to be brought into perspective a bit - noise is not a characteristic of a 4t or 2t but rather lack of a proper exhaust. I'm sorry, but a 2t on the pipe with an old style MX 'muffler' makes a racket that travels for about as far as a 4t with a similar exhaust. Both types of bikes are guilty - er rather the manufacturers and owners are guilty. Noise is still noise regardless of it's wave characteristic and it freaking annoys&irritates people.

For the typical woods/offroad rider(comparing 2t's vs. modern high perf. 4t's)-
The overall service life cost gap has narrowed somewhat with 2t's compared to the early days. Nowadays 4t top ends can often be done for $1000 or less, compared to $2000-2500 5 years ago.
They both use roughly similar amounts of oil over their lifetime. advantage -neither
4t's will use less gas- often 1/2 as much or less - advantage 4t (this will add up to $500+ over the life of the bike)
4t's will use fewer spark plugs - advantage 4t (I'm still on the original plug on my Husky TE250-almost 300 hours)
2t's are cheaper to rebuild(top end) ~$300 or less (piston & ring), but typically need to be done twice as often. Advantage - still 2t but the cost advantage is less than it was 5 years ago. Also, 4t top ends last longer nowadays than they did in the early days.
I believe 2t's typically need more frequent bottom end rebuilds(although I may be wrong...), if so - advantage 4t.
4t's have typically been heavier - advantage 2t(although that is rapidly diminishing ie. new Husky 250's)
Power delivery -advantage depends on what you prefer.
4t's tend not to get exhausts smashed up & replaced like 2t expansion chambers do. - advantage 4t.
I suspect 4t's, because they put power down better with less wheelspin would be easier on rear tires- possible advantage 4t...?
2t's are typically cheaper to purchase new - advantage 2t
I believe 2t's need mufflers repacked more often than 4t(based on my personal experience). If this applies across the board - advantage 4t.

Just some thoughts....

People can disagree about costs all they want, but it very important to make sure they are comparing apples to apples regarding riding styles/usage etc. ie. it's not fair to compare a slo-poke woods ridden 2t vs an expert mx 4t & vice versa.
It's not just yearly maintenance costs that should be looked at, but complete ownership costs. The fact is that you're going to use a lot more fuel and plugs in a 2t vs. an equivalent 4t along with having to keep extra jets on hand, smashed pipes, seizures etc. I've seen some modern 4ts had the head rebuilt for less than $700, so the costs have come way down on that compared to the early days.
If something breaks, both types of engines are quickly junkified regardless.
However, at the end of the day, ride what you like and stop crapping on each other about what the other guy rides.

 

[johnnyBgood]

Oh come , on let us crap on each other

.

 

[lankydoug]

A 12:1 4t needs race fuel or at least octane boost which offsets the cost of me adding mix oil to pump gas on my 2t so that's a wash.

Here is what is not a wash: There is over $1000.00+ worth of parts on the top end of a 4t that don't exist on my 2t. From my past experience building high compression drag race engines I know that the valve train is the weak link and the most costly of all the moving parts and when something goes it usually takes all of it out with it.

Another point to be made in favor of a 2t is buying a used one. Since you probably don't really know how the previous owner treated his bike you have to admit buying a used 4t is a much bigger gamble.

More power to those who want to ride 4ts, like my grandpa used to say "I'm glad everyone doesn't want what I want cuz if they did they'd all be trying to f&#k your grandma".

 

[Slowpoke]

A 12:1 4t needs race fuel or at least octane boost which offsets the cost of me adding mix oil to pump gas on my 2t so that's a wash.

Here is what is not a wash: There is over $1000.00+ worth of parts on the top end of a 4t that don't exist on my 2t. From my past experience building high compression drag race engines I know that the valve train is the weak link and the most costly of all the moving parts and when something goes it usually takes all of it out with it.

I run reg to med grade pump gas in my TE and TXC without issue; about 430hrs between the 2 bikes so far. Maybe some high comp 4ts need race gas, but not all........

As posted in prev. posts, the top ends are lasting quite well on newer 4ts, especially for the woods riders.
They are regularly getting 2-3 times the service life out of the top ends as the 2t guys get, so it brings the overall ownership costs a lot closer together between the 2 types, than it was 5-7 years ago...