GNCC, WORCS, ISDE most off road stuff is class and bike independent. Or maybe your talking just MX / SX ?
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4T Fiasco
- Thread starter Rob578
- Start date
GNCC, WORCS, ISDE most off road stuff is class and bike independent. Or maybe your talking just MX / SX ?
lankydoug
Husqvarna
Pro Class
I was just missing the days of 125 250 and Open in Motocross. If it went back to that 4ts would most likely be competitive in Open just not 250 and 125.
Going fast now days is mostly about suspension anyway.
Slowpoke
Husqvarna
AA Class
It's not midrange power that it needs, as they have roughly similar amounts, but rather the ability to put it to the ground, which all conventional 2ts have struggled with. That's why nobody in SX bothers with 2ts anymore.
A full computerized DI 2t could give you the best of both worlds;
Super wide torque and HP band, good fuel & oil economy, instantaneous power limiting in low traction conditions- traction control by skipping combustion cycles etc. Reverse if you want it.
Keep in mind - if a DI unit craps out on an Evinrude or a Skidoo, it's over $1000 for a new one........
Hey laugh if you want;
http://www.auto123.com/en/news/car-...tarts-with-high-compression?artid=128302&pg=2
snip:
What makes this engine SKYACTIV worthy? “Basically this is an ultra high-compression engine,” says Davis. The compression ratio of recent gas engines is generally around 10:1 to 12:1. Davis wouldn’t say what the compression ratio is on this particular engine, but did say that Mazda will have ratios as high as 14:1 in a couple of years.
This car with Skyactive is on sale now & they'll tweak the compression up over the next couple years.
Like I mentioned before there is a lot of factors involved in what types of high comp. engines can run as far as fuel goes.
Also, HCCI engines are only a year or two away from production - run diesel, gas, ethanol etc. in the same engine.
lankydoug
Husqvarna
Pro Class
Hey laugh if you want;
http://www.auto123.com/en/news/car-...tarts-with-high-compression?artid=128302&pg=2
snip:
What makes this engine SKYACTIV worthy? “Basically this is an ultra high-compression engine,” says Davis. The compression ratio of recent gas engines is generally around 10:1 to 12:1. Davis wouldn’t say what the compression ratio is on this particular engine, but did say that Mazda will have ratios as high as 14:1 in a couple of years.
This car with Skyactive is on sale now & they'll tweak the compression up over the next couple years.
Like I mentioned before there is a lot of factors involved in what types of high comp. engines can run as far as fuel goes.
Also, HCCI engines are only a year or two away from production - run diesel, gas, ethanol etc. in the same engine.
[/quote]
I own a multi fuel diesel/coal oil/gasoline/kerosene/any thing but high octane AV gas military truck that was built 40+ years ago. This isn't new, it runs by detonating like a diesel no matter the fuel and even though it's been around for 40+ years you still don't see it in production vehicles.
With variable cam timing and direct injection a lot is possible and I didn't say 14:1 on 87 octane is impossible I just said I'll bet the DI 2t gets here 1st. BTW 12:1 is a long long way from 14:1, it's not linear when you start compressing air fuel mixtures. Furthermore nothing was mentioned of 87 octane in the article.
http://www.auto123.com/en/news/car-...tarts-with-high-compression?artid=128302&pg=2
snip:
What makes this engine SKYACTIV worthy? “Basically this is an ultra high-compression engine,” says Davis. The compression ratio of recent gas engines is generally around 10:1 to 12:1. Davis wouldn’t say what the compression ratio is on this particular engine, but did say that Mazda will have ratios as high as 14:1 in a couple of years.
This car with Skyactive is on sale now & they'll tweak the compression up over the next couple years.
Like I mentioned before there is a lot of factors involved in what types of high comp. engines can run as far as fuel goes.
Also, HCCI engines are only a year or two away from production - run diesel, gas, ethanol etc. in the same engine.
[/quote]
I own a multi fuel diesel/coal oil/gasoline/kerosene/any thing but high octane AV gas military truck that was built 40+ years ago. This isn't new, it runs by detonating like a diesel no matter the fuel and even though it's been around for 40+ years you still don't see it in production vehicles.
With variable cam timing and direct injection a lot is possible and I didn't say 14:1 on 87 octane is impossible I just said I'll bet the DI 2t gets here 1st. BTW 12:1 is a long long way from 14:1, it's not linear when you start compressing air fuel mixtures. Furthermore nothing was mentioned of 87 octane in the article.
aya16
Husqvarna
A Class
Wow heck of a response from all you guys. Motosportz, as far as choices people have, pro racers, or even racers that race all the time and pay for their own bikes, have little choice
as to what bike they run, no one that I know of makes a 2t larger than a 300. Good racers that are not factory sponsored are at least shop sponsored (Most anyway)
The riders ride what the shop wants to sell.
As far as heavier, unreliable, expensive, the outboard industry doesn't play that out. I would guess that 2t hi-tech wouldn't cost any more than 4t stuff to repair or replace.
as I said my 99 kx250 has had one top end since new, but the 4t no matter how you slice it with tons more very precise, expensive moving parts is gonna cost lots more to keep going.
I'm sure if I owned a high performance 4t, I would get pretty good service life, as I have with my 2t's. But I have seen 2t failures, and 4t failures, It still costs way more to fix the 4t.
As far as valve's, mine was done at a shop, mainly because a valve shim kit costs more than a few bucks. Plus all the repairs you guys are talking about, you do yourself, not everyone
can, and at up to 90 dollars an hour..... Now my rate of riding I can get a few years on a top end, same would be for the 4t, 150 bucks for a top end on the 2t, lots more for the 4t,
you have to include a valve job, cams even a timing chain, as well as the adjuster to do the job right. Gaskets are a wash, sorta.
as far as using oil, and pipes, the oil's a wash, I use maybe a gallon a year, and use atf in the trans, in most of my 2t, my 4t stroke oil costs 12 bucks a quart, so that's a wash.
as far as the pipe, dings can be pulled out, doesn't seem to make any diff running wise for me, and I can get a few years service till I can't stand the looks of the dings I can't pull out.
My DI outboard in two years and 55 hours has burned a gallon of oil, at 50 bucks or so for the oil, no case oil, That's including the double oil break in for ten hours.
A DI bike would use about the same amount of oil. 4t, That's 3 oil changes in 55 hours, should be more like 5 oil changes with filters. Now I have to admit 55 hours
seems low for two years, but it's on a sail boat, and it's a 115hp outboard.
But I'm nit picking, you ride a two stroke diff than a 4t, and if there were more choices and more power available in the 2t, even without the DI I think we would see lots more
2t wins, in all the races motosportz was talking about.
racers tend to race what the pro's race, so, so many 4t and lack of choices spells out more 4t. I'll bet independent racers who pay their way would jump all over 2t DI
360- 450, to race against the 4t sponsored pro's.
The death blow to the 2t was pure political, just as it was in the outboard world. But the DI 2T may change all that, just as it did in the outboard world.
We may even see 2t back on the street again, you younger riders will be in for a real treat if that happens. Go dust off that kawy triple 500 2t your dad has in the garage
fire it up, and take it for a spin, you will see.... There's a lot to be said about power to weight.
Now I have to go get tires for the motorhome, talk about expensive.......
Mike
as to what bike they run, no one that I know of makes a 2t larger than a 300. Good racers that are not factory sponsored are at least shop sponsored (Most anyway)
The riders ride what the shop wants to sell.
As far as heavier, unreliable, expensive, the outboard industry doesn't play that out. I would guess that 2t hi-tech wouldn't cost any more than 4t stuff to repair or replace.
as I said my 99 kx250 has had one top end since new, but the 4t no matter how you slice it with tons more very precise, expensive moving parts is gonna cost lots more to keep going.
I'm sure if I owned a high performance 4t, I would get pretty good service life, as I have with my 2t's. But I have seen 2t failures, and 4t failures, It still costs way more to fix the 4t.
As far as valve's, mine was done at a shop, mainly because a valve shim kit costs more than a few bucks. Plus all the repairs you guys are talking about, you do yourself, not everyone
can, and at up to 90 dollars an hour..... Now my rate of riding I can get a few years on a top end, same would be for the 4t, 150 bucks for a top end on the 2t, lots more for the 4t,
you have to include a valve job, cams even a timing chain, as well as the adjuster to do the job right. Gaskets are a wash, sorta.
as far as using oil, and pipes, the oil's a wash, I use maybe a gallon a year, and use atf in the trans, in most of my 2t, my 4t stroke oil costs 12 bucks a quart, so that's a wash.
as far as the pipe, dings can be pulled out, doesn't seem to make any diff running wise for me, and I can get a few years service till I can't stand the looks of the dings I can't pull out.
My DI outboard in two years and 55 hours has burned a gallon of oil, at 50 bucks or so for the oil, no case oil, That's including the double oil break in for ten hours.
A DI bike would use about the same amount of oil. 4t, That's 3 oil changes in 55 hours, should be more like 5 oil changes with filters. Now I have to admit 55 hours
seems low for two years, but it's on a sail boat, and it's a 115hp outboard.
But I'm nit picking, you ride a two stroke diff than a 4t, and if there were more choices and more power available in the 2t, even without the DI I think we would see lots more
2t wins, in all the races motosportz was talking about.
racers tend to race what the pro's race, so, so many 4t and lack of choices spells out more 4t. I'll bet independent racers who pay their way would jump all over 2t DI
360- 450, to race against the 4t sponsored pro's.
The death blow to the 2t was pure political, just as it was in the outboard world. But the DI 2T may change all that, just as it did in the outboard world.
We may even see 2t back on the street again, you younger riders will be in for a real treat if that happens. Go dust off that kawy triple 500 2t your dad has in the garage
fire it up, and take it for a spin, you will see.... There's a lot to be said about power to weight.
Now I have to go get tires for the motorhome, talk about expensive.......
Mike
Rob578
Husqvarna
AA Class
BUT this discussion is about 2st / 4st cost of ownership and I believe bringing the complexity of DFI to 2 strokes will make them much more expensive to buy, maintain and own. thats was my point in opposition to DFI. Most of us that love 2st's, myself included like them because they are simple.
I'm not trying to be rude or argumentative just posting my perspective, nothing else.
K[/quote]
Actually I started it because I thought the article was hilarious....that an old Maico could handle better than a modern bike. I could care less what you ride as long as you ride. I do think my WR300 is the perfect trailbike but that's just my opinion
I'm not trying to be rude or argumentative just posting my perspective, nothing else.
K[/quote]
Actually I started it because I thought the article was hilarious....that an old Maico could handle better than a modern bike. I could care less what you ride as long as you ride. I do think my WR300 is the perfect trailbike but that's just my opinion
Rob578
Husqvarna
AA Class
One more thing, I've mentioned this before but since the conversation has turned to DFI Outboards I'll do it again. I have a 10yo 150hp Mercury Optimax with over 800 hours. Aside from DFI issues I've never had a mechanical problem. It does get awesome fuel mileage, is light and fast but if anything at all gets out of wack with the electronics it's DOA and you can't fix it. It's a trip to the dealer with the laptop. I fished offshore in the ocean with that boat and never felt comfortable unless we had another boat along. Is a DFI dirbike going to be that much better? With the exception of fuel mileage and emissions I didn't see alot of improvement going from a 2T Outboard to a DFI. I guess the emissions concerns will utimately be the deciding factor.
Woodsrider101
Husqvarna
C Class
I can respect the advantages of owning a four stroke, but for my type of riding which is east coast (tight & technical single track), this is where my WR300 will shine. Previously, I have owned a Honda XR400R and the most frustrating part of owning one was dumping it on a stump ridden steep hill and it dies, then after 20 kicks and some swearing to persuade it to start, it starts and I am read to passout from exhuastion. This still was a great trail bike for it dependabiltity and low end grunt which is no comparisson to the advantage of the newer 4 stroke bikes in terms of weight, power and suspension. I bought it for its low maintenance and dependability sort of like a 2 stroke. I had alot of fun with it and will miss its tractor power but not the weight or its hot starting issues. But to also note, I do ride with some newer KTM 4 stroke guys and the ones with out e-start have a hard time getting theirs started when hot (SX 250). Another reason why I bought a 2 stroke is from what I have seen at hare scrambles and some really muddy trail conditions, the 4 stroke bikes tend to overheat very quickly when conditions get very snoughty with deep mud as compared to the 2 strokes. Overall, I would probly buy a 4 stoke if I lived out west for faster terrane conditions and more open riding. They are definately smoother in power and better for dualsporting. For me the WR300 is light, easy to start cold or hot, big power yet excellent low end lug-ability, very easy and simple to work on for the DIY, no special tools needed. I do not race Hare Scrambles every week end, maybe 30-35 trail ridden hours per year, which means I may put a top end in at the cost of $250.00 in the next three years, as far as 2 stroke oil goes in cost relation to 4 strokes, I do do not have to buy oil filters at a oem cost of around 6 to 10 dollars every oil change. From my experience, I still believe a 2 stroke is cheaper to maintain.
TXC449, will never flood (EFI), is E-start, feels light, handles great, makes awesome tractable power, no engine braking make it great in single track, awesome do it all mount.
Woodsrider101
Husqvarna
C Class
TXC449, will never flood (EFI), is E-start, feels light, handles great, makes awesome tractable power, no engine braking make it great in single track, awesome do it all mount.
From 2011 TXC449 is the perfect open class bike for a racer in mind (GNCC or Enduro's), but eight grand plus tax & fees is a little steep for me for just trail riding or an occasional hare scamble here and there, no back up kick starter, too long to quick fill tank that could be a real pain for any racing event, small main tank 1.7 must bleed into small .5 reserve tank, no quick fill here. You can clarify for me I may be wrong, but from what I understand is if your battery dies, you are stuck, cannot bump start becuase the computer needs constant battery voltage to maintain EFI function, also must remap computer on occassions, need to buy software plus laptop or take to the dealer, not for the DIY. All this new technology comes with a price in the end.
Yes it is a little spendy but about in line with any other new bike. As for the bat I plan on carrying a little a VERY light lithiom battery when I go on rides where i am in deep woods far away from the truck. Not a big deal. Fantastic bike. The fuel sub tank adds about 10 seconds to fill. It is just a thought. Ride one and you might change your mind.
lankydoug
Husqvarna
Pro Class
I bought a brand new leftover 09 WR250 for $4895.00 so it will be a long time before my costs get to 8K. The trails I ride can't tell the difference between my bike and the latest greatest bike. Overall cost of ownership won't even out for a long time if ever. I did almost buy a 2009 Suzuki 450 4t for $4900.00 but the dealer treated me like a hobo since I was self employed. I guess he thought I couldn't afford it. Bill at BMP was a really nice guy and I was leaning toward a 2t anyway so I paid cash and he shipped it. I like the Husky so much I went back to the Suzuki dealer and thanked him for being a jerk.
ioneater
Husqvarna
AA Class
Lots of good points to ponder. Tank has been brought up already. Dead battery vs. bump start would be very good to know; Mikuni is plain dead if there is no voltage, hopefully the Keihin system is not as dependant. Remap=jetting with a computer, get used to it. It is for DYI if you can get past the analog thought process. It may not be easier, though. The price has been painfully obvious since 08's introduction with the Mikuni EFI crap. I can't say Mikuni's parts or software are bad as the information flow down through Husky is so slow and apparently guarded it's really hard to tell. Don't know why this solution was used but am guessing something to do with cost. And it did cost Husky a lot in reputation especially as an early adopter of EFI on otherwise competitive bikes. Seems silly from my little spot in the corner.
Greg I have seen a 2008 husky TE 250 have a battery that measured zero with a volt meter, kick strarted and run. I think the turn tech batterys that develop a short or have a broken terminal will not work because of the lack of continuity. A dead battery should work, a broken one shouldn't.
Husaberg got the Keihin system right the first time out with the 2009 FE450 and FE570, before even Honda (who owns a chunk of Keihin).
On the Husaberg the battery is not optional.
CoWR360
Husqvarna
A Class
I
Matt
I've always loved 2 strokes and am glad to see that they are still being developed by some companies to their fullest potential. After all are'nt we all after the most efficient use of fuel to enjoy our sport to the fullest?Bring on the direct injected 2-stroke turbo bio diesel.
Matt
LawnDartMike
Husqvarna
AA Class
I wonder
I wonder how many wild animals would be attracted to the OHV areas by all the bio diesel bikes smelling like french fries?
I
I've always loved 2 strokes and am glad to see that they are still being developed by some companies to their fullest potential. After all are'nt we all after the most efficient use of fuel to enjoy our sport to the fullest?Bring on the direct injected 2-stroke turbo bio diesel.
Matt
I wonder how many wild animals would be attracted to the OHV areas by all the bio diesel bikes smelling like french fries?
