2013 Txc310r Won't E-start Or Kick (yes, I've Searched... A Lot)

[Trenchcoat85]

Symptoms are hard starting, requiring some throttle input to get the bike to catch and run. The mysterious part is that it's hit and miss, and I can't say why. I've adjusted the TPS as far as I can, which seemed to help. When the bike was newer it didn't need any throttle input to start. Also, it stumbles at very small throttle angles. It could be a lot of things, and I'm screwing with the fuel system mainly because I'm doing the same on my 690 and it's easier to order extra odds and ends all at once. It tends to flame out quite a bit at off idle conditions, even though it pulls like a freight train at mid and upper RPM. I know every bike has limitations, but it seems like there's room for improvement.

Do you know if anyone has a tuned map for the ECU that helps the TXC? I'm told the TE's benefit from a TXC 12 port injector and ECU.
...

push your cold start/idle in; now turn it cw in all the way. back it out ccw 40 clicks. You want a 2000rpm idle or even higher.

Ty Davis (ZTR) has a modified map that his race team used to use. You can try that, but for guys at our level, the race map already in your TXC is more than enough.

The 12 hole injector mod was for Mikuni FI systems. I think our Keihin systems pass enough fine gas.

 

[Trenchcoat85]

...I think you're correct about the full flow potential of the system. When I tested it initially there was a firehose of fuel coming out (12V wired directly to pump and injector), which is why I didn't dig into the fuel system initially. What I'm starting to wonder about is how well the system flows at the lower end of the range of the injector pulse width. I'm going to have the injector cleaned while it's all apart as well, just in case. I'm told even the newer KTM's and Husky's benefit from a reduction in fuel flow resistance at low RPM and throttle positions. (https://www.ktmandhusky.com/fuel-rail-for-12-16-exc-xcwf-fe-fe-) At this point it's more of an experiment to see if the bike runs better or not.

The KL97 is 8mm on both ends, and the KL15 is 6mm on both ends. All I know is that KTM changed the 690's over from the KL15 to the KL97 at some point. I don't know what the reasons were, but it's cheap and easy to change the filter, which is a maintenance item anyways, and $10 worth of hoses just to see what happens.

The CA Cycleworks pump looks just like the OEM pump, except the body is a different color, and it says "made in China" instead of "made in Czech."

I have a stock fuel pump from a TC and it's made in China. The brand name is "Aisan" but it's so stylized and small on the pump- it's hard to read. These Japanese pumps are made all over the world.




Thanx for the Mahle filter dimensions- it turns out that my TC fuel pump filter is NOT a Mahle, unlike my TE (KL-15) but it does have a 6mm sized inlet and 8mm outlet. My bad. Tinken claimed that some Mahle filters were susceptible to breakdown caused by water in the fuel. I have not seen this- I wonder if he was referring to these Brazilian filters on the TCs?

Flow resistance: fluid dynamics is pretty much voodoo. That being said, if fuel flow is not a problem at large throttle openings, it ain't a problem at small throttle openings (using the same circuit of course)- it's gonna be even more laminar. And if you go for that fuel rail, you will need a new fuel line- if your TXC uses that nylon/teflon stiff thing covered in rubber. Our italian huskys use a different connector than KTM (quick disconnect, Bundy connector). There may not be enough room on our bikes to route the fuel line from the back of the bike. And if that guy is a friend of yours, I'll delete this- but my bullshit detector is pegged. If he is running a KTM 500 at 175mph flat out...(wow) fuel flow might be an issue; otherwise- I doubt it.

Also- it's not gonna fix anything. Our fuel pumps are full volume, full pressure all the time they're on.

And if you're getting a good spray at full pulse width I would imagine at a smaller duration you'd be good. No?

One of my favorite technical threads here at Cafe Husky ended up with a "semi" bad injector, which was tested with good (false) results. I re-read that thread a few times to find out where I could've gone wrong on the diagnosis or see what I missed (nothing really... EXCEPT! my assumption that a professionally tested fuel injector was good. And it was not- lesson learned... the hard way. I had the correct reason for the symptoms, but missed the root cause by a mile. grrrrrrrr. shit). The point is to keep an open mind, I guess. And separate the issues.
http://www.cafehusky.com/threads/2013-txc-250-starts-cold-stalls-hot-then-wont-start.86961/

weird co-inky-dink: I just bought a TXC TB with everything BUT the fuel rail (and condenser). Should be here next week.

good luck.

 

[benny_mech]

Bringing this back from the dead. Anyone know if the stock valves can be recut, or are they coated (Ti)? After testing the fuel injector and pump (again), I pulled off the throttle body and inlet to find the left intake valve all krusty, and the right one perfectly clean. I've checked the valves a ton of times, and will do once more before I tear the head off. My injector didn't leak like the one in the thread above, but I'd like to clean it just the same. What's the best way to do that?

 

[Trenchcoat85]

The left intake exhaust is the valve that the ADC works on. Maybe that is a factor (holding it open?)

 

[benny_mech]

Pretty sure the ADC is on the left exhaust valve, no? In any case, I pulled the crusty intake valve out hoping to find the smoking gun. Of course, I was not so lucky. Valve springs look fine, valve and seat look ok. I'll have to check the seat match with some DyeChem and go from there. Some recommend checking for leaking valves by turning the head upside down, pouring gas in the combustion chamber and looking for leaks. Ty can recut the valves and seats, but I don't want to spend the $$ if it's not going to fix the problem.

80 psi on the compression tester
82psi pressure difference on the leakdown tester (should be in the 0-10 range)
Valve clearances all in spec

 

[benny_mech]

Squirted carb cleaner into each of the ports, one at a time, and saw no leakage around any of the valves. I checked the function of my leakdown tester by threading it into the spark plug hole and plugging the hole with my thumb. Both gauges read 40 psi, which was about all I could hold with thumb pressure. I think my next move is to clamp the head gasket and head to a flat piece of aluminum and check leakdown again with the head off the bike. If the valves really are seating, then it's on to the piston and rings.

Other areas that are suspect: O-ring on the injector, and molded o-ring that is part of the intake manifold, where it seals to the head. Seemed like it's way too easy to install the injector into the throttle body, and the profile of the molded o-ring seems awfully short for good sealing on a rubber part with two bolts holding it on.

 

[benny_mech]

Double checked injector O-Ring, it seems ok on closer inspection. The intake flange on the head looks clean, which tells me it's not leaking there. I back flushed the injector and no obvious crap came out. Pulled the jug and piston and they both look fine. Haven't measured ring gaps yet, but I'm running out of things to check.

I've almost got myself talked into a new exhaust cam with the revised decompressor spring. I cleaned the carbon off of the piston, and will have to reset the throttle position sensor because it's looking rich. I may have to check the TPS output with a scope to make sure the signal isn't dropping out. What's after that? Seems worse when the bike is hot; temp sensors?

 

[benny_mech]

Anybody have compression numbers for a healthy 310?

I know my clutch drags, and I'm wondering if it's enough to kill the engine at low revs. I've checked the steels and fibers and they measure in spec, but they are 5 years old and I do slip the crap out of the clutch. Would new fibers help?

 

[benny_mech]

Checked the coolant temp sensor at the back of the cylinder against a brand new one. Got roughly a 6-8% difference at room temp and in ~180 F water.

Piston, cylinder, and ring gaps are all at their wear limits. Not past, but at the top of the range. I doubt it's enough to cause the issues I'm seeing, but I'll be replating/honing and getting a new piston at a minimum.

 

[Trenchcoat85]

Checked the coolant temp sensor at the back of the cylinder against a brand new one. Got roughly a 6-8% difference at room temp and in ~180 F water....

your old coolant sensor is good then, I'd say.

 

[benny_mech]

Where's the best place to get parts these days? I need to spend some $$, and I'm currently avoiding Motosport.com because of Backcountry.com's (parent company) lawsuit mania. Halls has what I need, but at a 40% premium.

Edit: Just found KTM Parts Pro, and they have slightly cheaper prices than Motosport.

Also, the service manual says the valves can't be recut.

 

[Johnrg]

Try Bill's...
http://www.cafehusky.com/forums/bills-motorcycle-plus.47/

https://www.billshusky.com/

 

[xlite250]

Hello,

I have a 2010 TE250, I know you have a different bike, but they may still be relevant.

I’m trying to put together a comprehensive list here for you of things I’ve done.

I had a hard starting issue after a rebuild and initial running. some of these things I have copied and pasted from other threads that Ive wrote on, but figured I would paste them here for you, and I know you have tried most if not all of these but I thought I would reiterate them in case something rings a bell for you....

1) I've found that after awhile (4-8hrs after an air filter cleaning and oiling of hard riding or lots of KMs at low rpms, like my trip) my bike would sputter on initial throttle application and not idle very well if at all. So I checked all the usual suspects, and have concluded that air filter oil and/or engine oil from the crankcase ventilation had contaminated my throttle body sensors for the MAQS (I think that's what husky calls it - MAP/MAF/TPS). This caused it to gummed up, so I sprayed carb cleaner down my throttle body with the bike running, and this cleared up a lot of the idling and initial throttle sputtering issues.

Update: This issue was remedied by using a different air filter oil, and spraying carb cleaner into the throttle body every other filter change.

2) The air bypass screw had backed out slightly thus lowering my idle speed and caused hard cold starting, so I reset it, to ~3 turns out, and my bike very well now. Also check your hot start lever and ensure its not binding up and is working correctly

3) I know you have done this already - but my injector was having hell of time for whatever reasons, before I changed the fuel filter. I put 12V to it to open it up and back sprayed carb cleaner through it.

4) I had a stator wire meltdown, that shorted itself to the frame, but when I checked it with my OHM meter it was passable so I taped up the wires and carried on, turns out that I had fried the pick up. this wasn't a problem until my engine was rebuilt after it seized the crank - a month later, not sure why though. So after the new engine was put back into the bike the stator was causing the bike to have intermittent running and starting issues, even gave the mechanic false readings with iBeat - saying it had an open injector circuit, took my mechanic 4 extra days to figure it out - replaced the stator with a new one from a SHERCO that is the same Ducati Part number 43313 [8010] as stock - swapped the connector plugs, and no more issues. Turns out a bad pick up will cause it to run like shit or not start even intermittently.

This is my big hitter for your issues......after reading all 3 pages.

5) replaced my fuel filter with a Ducati KL145 Part #42540041B, also be sure to use submersible grade fuel hose, they are not all equal - again doesn't seem to be your problem....

6) I replaced my starter solenoid with a new one as well that has the 30 amp fuse in it, old old fried itself, and the fuse blew leaving me stranded until I found it, Since then I’ve put a new battery and rebuilt starter from Ricks Motorsports Electrics - no issues now with the electric start.

7) I had my valves shimmed really tight (July 2019) to help starting and to prevent my starter from burning out again. Ive set them to .006”(.15mm) for all valves - so far they haven’t moved in 21 hrs.

8) go over all your wiring and look for chaffed wires - my bike had a lot of them under the tank especially, luckily none of them broke through but were very close.

If all else fails then below is a copy and paste from another person could be your next avenue. and his problems were with a TXC310R.

Giack Husky310R
Hello, now I'm writing with my new account (MickWr is my brother, no double account)
Summing up, after many other tests (thanks xlite

) i decided to ship my CDI (a JD racing ingnition marked ktm sxf

made in italy) to the manufacturer and after a few weeks they told me that the CDI was fried and that it could be the cause of the trouble. They also suggested me to check the wiring harness because my CDI was the first fried cdi they have ever seen and according to them CDI's doesn't burn itself. Since I'm not very good with electricity i've already purchased a new wiring harness and, because I've found a very good deal, a new engine because mine will have yes or no 400+ hours with only oil changes e and didn't seem in good conditions. If someone is interested I'm selling a used 310R engine

Now i'm going to have my frame sand blasted and then repainted so i'll have a brand new 310R (or very close to new)
Thanks for the help guys

 

[benny_mech]

Hello,

I have a 2010 TE250, I know you have a different bike, but they may still be relevant.

Thanks for your list, it's nice to see and compare. For better or worse, I've hit all of the items in your list except #4 and #7 without much joy. I took apart the cylinder head last night and found a lot of deposits in the exhaust ports, which tells me it's running very rich. This makes sense based on my TPS setting, but doesn't explain the popping on decel that I'd normally associate with a lean condition. Once I get everything put back together I'm going to reset the TPS back to OEM specs and see how it runs. If the problem persists I'll try to get my hands on a wideband O2 sensor and measure the mix while riding. Unfortunately the stock sensor bung in the header pipe is a really odd size and I can't find a sensor to match. I do have a weld on bung and wideband sensor on the shelf though, so that's plan B.

 

[Johnrg]

I have a PCv on my 310 and no popping, just smooth running. I would keep tps as stock and keep the idle up a bit. I have tables for map 3 which you probably are running on a txc. This table shows the modifications to Map 3 in percentages. Many of the low throttle poition cells and even 0 show I pulled out over 5-10% of fuel, and more when I created a high elevation map. At 10% and idle+ rpms a few cells pulled more and seems like just as rolling on the throttle.

http://www.cafehusky.com/threads/power-commander-5-and-autotune-on-a-13-te-310r.44827/#post-437949

​

 

[benny_mech]

I love data! You're pulling a lot of fuel out in several places, that's good information. I checked out your other thread, looks like I'll be getting out the welder and installing the bigger O2 sensor. I'm debating going with the full PCV setup vs. Microsquirt. Would be really nice to have ignition timing control as well, but getting to a working starting point will likely be a PITA.

 

[Johnrg]

Timing was the only thing could not do much about so having Map 3 at least offers the optimum base map. Dynojet installed mine and dynoed it. They thought potentially they could control ignition but they could not. I had them install the 18mm bung (stock is 12mm) and autotune and a map switch. I used autotune back at sea level and took a few percent more out compared to elevation in Las Vegas. I also made a high elevation Map for 6500ft and above. Very satisfying setup.

 

[benny_mech]

I figured out why the right intake valve was clean and the left one was dirty. The throttle body and injector are angled slightly to the head, so the injector sprays toward the right hand intake valve, and not the left.

 

[benny_mech]

Project update:

Mild porting and polishing on the head, hoping to keep the carbon from building up:

Before:

After:

Cleaning up crusty valves, before:

after:

Custom turned Flywheel Weight. Approximately 33% more rotational inertia over stock:

Wideband O2 sensor bung machined:

Still waiting on my back ordered piston, timing chain, valve springs, etc. I really wish it was easier to get parts for this thing...

 

[Mark Cavanough]

One thing I would suggest is check the kill switch isn't intermittent and faulty--I've seen that happen before and you can go off chasing all sorts of gremlins -and end up creating problems that weren't there-and spend a lot of money for something simple--worth checking-imo Cheers