2011 TE-310 Sheared Keys & Non-Start

[srowzeen]

Trench, Little and MorganD - thank you. I will dress your thoughts as best I can.

Trench - the metal fragments are not fragments or any type of removable remnants - what you are seeing are - marks from likely - the many sheared keys. The half moon part which is sheared off the crank has typically floated around on the inside of the case and gotten beaten up. Not to mention, we had a nut spin loose off the starter drive in our first sheared key, which we fixed, but the nut and washer got hammer by the starter gear to the point of metal shavings getting sent around the case as well.

I have used brake cleaner trying to clean that are up removing the freewheel, as the freewheel has been replaced and everything cleaned underneath as well. We've replaced the needle bearing and thrust washer underneath too. If you saw the flywheel, you would see the underside - outer edge of the the surface closest to the crank shaft facing inward is a mess, marred and uneven. I will try to get a pic if it too.

Glad to hear the pic of the goop looks OK.. (one thing that is OK)

R-Little - I have removed the burrs and made the crank nice and smooth. I have also bought some Permatex Prussian Blue and will use it when mating the new flywheel to the crank. I have mild lapping compound and will use the PB with the compound to see if we have high and low spots. I will also make sure I am not polishing the crank to a mirror finish. Will finish it with a 200 grit swipe. Or just won't do much to it after I use the lapping compound. Just clean it off. Flywheel was $369. I bought a new nut and washer too, as I was worried the threads on the nut might be worked too. I will tighten to 100nM (74-75 ftlbs) as well with 608 Loctite. By the way, I haven't worked the crank much, just trying to dress it enough to give the flywheel a chance.

MorganD - good eyes! That lobe on the starter broken, we think from the nut on the crank loosening and the flywheel and the freewheel becoming loose and then trying to electrically start it and the worm drive from the starter kicking up off the teeth of the freewheel. We didn't notice it at first but it quickly revealed itself with oil coming out off it. We removed it and used JB Weld on the lobe. It is holding fine. If for some reason it breaks again, I am either going to abandon the E-Start completely or by a new case for the starter.

Anyway more to come and am very grateful for all your input.

 

[Trenchcoat85]

I think you have more problems with your engine. Your starter gear is probably worn and thats why you have metalfragment there.
If you look at the picture you can see my mark and thats probably a crak in the starter, that soon can resolve in pulled starter that will take a piece of the engine block to.

View attachment 78178

yeah... I saw that too. And really, I don't think you (srowzeen) have an issue. But give it a hard look.

...Trench - the metal fragments are not fragments or any type of removable remnants - what you are seeing are - marks from likely - the many sheared keys. The half moon part which is sheared off the crank has typically floated around on the inside of the case and gotten beaten up. Not to mention, we had a nut spin loose off the starter drive in our first sheared key, which we fixed, but the nut and washer got hammer by the starter gear to the point of metal shavings getting sent around the case as well.

wow- I'm surprised the flywheel could come far enough off the crank to let the broken key go (I'm wondering: how was it turning??)

$369 hmmm, t'ain't cheap now, is it? but from your description, I would've bought another one too. The damage is a lot more extensive then I was seeing.

I'm not sure I'd use 608 on the nut; I'm thinking more like 272 red (or whatever Locktite calls it nowadays- seems to change). I'm assuming that 608 is what they used to call "Stud and Bearing Mount" or some such, which I'd use on the flywheel. (IOW, I don't know what 608 is)

...We removed it and used JB Weld on the lobe. It is holding fine. If for some reason it breaks again, I am either going to abandon the E-Start completely or by a new case for the starter.

hunh. I saw that and thought it was gray Permatex gasket crap. So is that mount split also? I'm not sure your e-start is long for this world if so. Kickstarter city after the first big backfire.

 

[srowzeen]

Flywheel is coming today. I am reticent to E-Start this at all. I am going to kick-start no matter what... I need to get some mile son this thing.

I will check on the other Loctite, I was also thinking of reaching out to a company called Spiralock. They make nuts just for these types of applications where you don't want it to loosen under any circumstances. I did order a new nut though, so lets see what happens to it.

 

[R_Little]

The correct loctite is 609 not 608.

They make something called 680 which is the same thing just thicker. Use 609 just a little bit on crank end and flywheel. Don't get it all over the place and try to keep it off the woodruff key so you can get it out next time. That 200 finish is fine. Again don't go overboard.
After you lap, lightly put flywheel on with the Prussian Blue and see if is distributes evenly over the joint. That indicates an even fit.


Don't put any loctite 272 on the nut. You will need heat to remove it then. It is not necessary once the fitment is correct it will not loosen. It will also screw up your torque reading and you might strip the threads. I'd do 60ftlb/ 85 NM max. Don't put oil on the threads either. Tighten on dry threads. Use some heat on the flywheel crank connection the next time you take it off with the puller. Use a new stock nut. Keep in mind you will have to remove it someday.

Once the burrs are off it will stay on fine.

Good luck

 

[R_Little]

I have a spare case for the starter if you need one.

It is a good thing the starter case is cracked and not the engine case.

They usually crack the engine case when the sheared key causes a kickback.

 

[R_Little]

oh....let the 609 dry overnight before you put oil in and run the bike.

 

[Trenchcoat85]

The correct loctite is 609 not 608.

They make something called 680 which is the same thing just thicker. Use 609 just a little bit on crank end and flywheel. Don't get it all over the place and try to keep it off the woodruff key so you can get it out next time. That 200 finish is fine. Again don't go overboard.
After you lap, lightly put flywheel on with the Prussian Blue and see if is distributes evenly over the joint. That indicates an even fit.


Don't put any loctite 272 on the nut. You will need heat to remove it then. It is not necessary once the fitment is correct it will not loosen. It will also screw up your torque reading and you might strip the threads. I'd do 60ftlb/ 85 NM max. Don't put oil on the threads either. Tighten on dry threads. Use some heat on the flywheel crank connection the next time you take it off with the puller. Use a new stock nut. Keep in mind you will have to remove it someday.

Once the burrs are off it will stay on fine.

Good luck

Srowzeen, I am going to take the contrarian role here on a couple of points. (remember, though- I've never dealt with the husky flywheel issue)

First, I'm not so sure a 200# finish is the ideal- I'd think something a bit smoother. The tapers I've worked with (mills, drill presses, lathes etc) are always very smooth and have an insanely high ability to transmit torque. I'm thinking a finer finish would be better. The taper fit is what's gonna hold, not the Locktite- which is just extra insurance against imperfections.

Secondly, & this is weird. I've spent a good deal of time advocating AGAINST using 272 red. Mainly because people do not understand how Locktite works (metal ions, anaerobic etc) and so they get complacent; because everything they've used 272 on before hasn't produced a problem. Then they blissfully use it on a steel-on-steel application where no heat can easily be applied for removal... and the shit is almost permanent. IMO, 243 (my fav) is almost always better, especially if you habitually use the activator (me: 50/50). It produces a good strong hold which can be broken if you try.

So that being said: use 243 blue (or 242) on the flywheel nut. But using 272 red here is a natural also- it's a large steel nut, easy to get to and easy to apply heat to. BTW, with the right amount of direct heat, all locktite that I have used turns to butter.

Thirdly, almost any liquid you put on screw threads (oils, Locktites etc) reduces the amount of torque you need to get the same clamping force. A good rule of thumb I made up (hah- me and a million other guys) is to reduce the dry torque by 10% when locktite, grease, oil, glue etc are involved- to get the same tension. This brings us very close without having to look up the final torque.

[confession: I just end up putting the dry torque on most apps anyways, no matter what's on the threads. And except for motor heads, printers, disc drives... I go by feel. shhhhh. Okay, one last confession: I think beam torque wrenches are the best- stays calibrated, repeatable, and I can watch myself sneak up on the torque; usually in stages and patterns. But it's clickers if I'm doing a lot of fasteners and/or can't see]

I would lightly apply the 608/9 to the crank only. ~95% is gonna come out anyway, if the tapers match. I would install the flywheel while it's mildly heated up (120°) to help get further deeper onto the taper. Tap it on with a brass hammer, a big socket, and a couple of washers maybe. Torque it up. And try not to forget the key. hah.

I have been opposed to using impact guns on the cranks of 4-strokes for a long time, but most of the world is fine with it. <shrug>

I bet George Url has done a few of these before; his opinion would carry a ton more weight than mine. George: you out there?

srowzeen, I do not know what that spiral nut thing is, but I'd probably go with the new stock nut.

good luck.

 

[srowzeen]

All information is in hand, flywheel actually coming today. I have all the Loctite as mentioned and will use on the nut and the flywheel to taper surface. I am thinking of making the surface of the taper not a 200, but maybe in the 600 range. I have access to an impact wrench, but think I will abstain until I shear another key. Which I hope will be "never" cause I am going to sell this once it is reliably running. I have a torque wrench, but one where someone needs to be reading it as I wrench. I have never seen a beam torque wrench, but maybe I can pick one up before I do the work, which will likely be tonight. I will keep everyone updated and again, thank everyone for the help and suggestions.

 

[Trenchcoat85]

sounds like you already have a beam torque wrench maybe (sometimes called bar/beam). cheap. accurate. if the needle is off at rest, push on it until it zeros. I like the ball handle or pivoting handle that put your force at a precise point on the beam.

you may not wanna sell the 310 once you get it going... they handle good, brake good, and are pretty damn fast.

good luck.

 

[EUROJulian]

...

I have been opposed to using impact guns on the cranks of 4-strokes for a long time, but most of the world is fine with it. <shrug>.....

Impacts are producing results for people who use them daily and know their gun well. For casual user they are weapons of mass destruction. ..

 

[R_Little]

All information is in hand, flywheel actually coming today. I have all the Loctite as mentioned and will use on the nut and the flywheel to taper surface. I am thinking of making the surface of the taper not a 200, but maybe in the 600 range. I have access to an impact wrench, but think I will abstain until I shear another key. Which I hope will be "never" cause I am going to sell this once it is reliably running. I have a torque wrench, but one where someone needs to be reading it as I wrench. I have never seen a beam torque wrench, but maybe I can pick one up before I do the work, which will likely be tonight. I will keep everyone updated and again, thank everyone for the help and suggestions.

I would not worry. It wont shear again.

I've done 6 of these and they never sheared again.

I bet your gouged flywheel was causing the problem.

As for the finish, I just used the medium lapping compound lightly.....maybe 400?

 

[srowzeen]

R_Little, Trench, Euro:

UPDATE - OK, phew... what an ordeal. New flywheel installed, new nut and washer as well. Torqued to 100nM. Let it sit for 48 hours. Removed tank, emptied gas, put in an ounce of SeaFoam with new 92 octane gas. Kicked it about 20 times and it started. Quickly stopped, took another 10 or 15 kicks. Ran it for about 30 mins... let it sit for about 2 hours, added more gas, kicked it took about another 20 kicks. Seems very temperamental with choke and throttle. Finally turned over and ran it another 15 mins or so. Seems OK for now. Would like to see if kicked over a little sooner, but after my travails, I will take where I am. Thank you all for the help. I have learned ALOT.

Any thoughts on the kicking? Oh, I refuse to electrically start it, too frightened.

 

[R_Little]

R_Little, Trench, Euro:

UPDATE - OK, phew... what an ordeal. New flywheel installed, new nut and washer as well. Torqued to 100nM. Let it sit for 48 hours. Removed tank, emptied gas, put in an ounce of SeaFoam with new 92 octane gas. Kicked it about 20 times and it started. Quickly stopped, took another 10 or 15 kicks. Ran it for about 30 mins... let it sit for about 2 hours, added more gas, kicked it took about another 20 kicks. Seems very temperamental with choke and throttle. Finally turned over and ran it another 15 mins or so. Seems OK for now. Would like to see if kicked over a little sooner, but after my travails, I will take where I am. Thank you all for the help. I have learned ALOT.

Any thoughts on the kicking? Oh, I refuse to electrically start it, too frightened.

Both my x-lites start 1-3 kicks every time.

As for technique, you don't stab at it like a 2 stroke. Make sure the kick lever is all the way up against compression. Slowly push it down until it stops up top of the stroke. Pull the cold start lever. Kick smoothly from top all the way until the lever hits the peg and stops. Depending on how tall you are. You might want to put a step stool or crate under your left foot, so you get a nice smooth full kick.

As for the bike, does it run well once it warms up?

It might blubber for like 10 sec once it starts after that it should idle smooth at a hi idle with the cold start lever pulled.

Do you have I beat?

What color is your temp sensor behind the rt side of the cylinder when you unplug it?

 

[MorganD]

R_Little, Trench, Euro:



emptied gas, put in an ounce of SeaFoam with new 92 octane gas. quote].

Why 92 here in Sweden we have 95 and 98 octane, and I use 98.

 

[srowzeen]

Why 92 here in Sweden we have 95 and 98 octane, and I use 98.

Morgan - I think the highest level octane we can get in California is 91 (sorry not 92) there are some stations they may still carry 93. But for "emissions" reasons, California is nuts by the way, 91 is best we can do.

 

[srowzeen]

Both my x-lites start 1-3 kicks every time.

As for technique, you don't stab at it like a 2 stroke. Make sure the kick lever is all the way up against compression. Slowly push it down until it stops up top of the stroke. Pull the cold start lever. Kick smoothly from top all the way until the lever hits the peg and stops. Depending on how tall you are. You might want to put a step stool or crate under your left foot, so you get a nice smooth full kick.

As for the bike, does it run well once it warms up?

It might blubber for like 10 sec once it starts after that it should idle smooth at a hi idle with the cold start lever pulled.

Do you have I beat?

What color is your temp sensor behind the rt side of the cylinder when you unplug it?

I, we, were stabbing at it and after I played with it, I noticed it liked me being at the very top of the kick and kicking all the way to the bottom. When you say "slowly push it down until it stops up top of the stroke" what do you mean? Slowly push it down until I feel something? Then come back to the top and kick "top to bottom" smoothly? Just want to understand your description. Step stool is needed for sure, but I am 6'1" and the added boost is needed, but that sucks out in the field...

It runs quite well. no complaints.

I replaced the temp sensor... its white now.

Whats "I Beat"? (no I don't have it)

 

[Trenchcoat85]

R_Little, Trench, Euro:

UPDATE - OK, phew... what an ordeal. New flywheel installed, new nut and washer as well. Torqued to 100nM. Let it sit for 48 hours. Removed tank, emptied gas, put in an ounce of SeaFoam with new 92 octane gas. Kicked it about 20 times and it started. Quickly stopped, took another 10 or 15 kicks. Ran it for about 30 mins... let it sit for about 2 hours, added more gas, kicked it took about another 20 kicks. Seems very temperamental with choke and throttle. Finally turned over and ran it another 15 mins or so. Seems OK for now. Would like to see if kicked over a little sooner, but after my travails, I will take where I am. Thank you all for the help. I have learned ALOT.

Any thoughts on the kicking? Oh, I refuse to electrically start it, too frightened.

nice. congratulations.

Kicking: I rarely kick my 310R... but when I do, it's one kick hot or cold. no throttle, no cold start (unless it's below 60° maybe), firm kick without the hand waving about getting the piston past TDC. but it's got a different FI system remember (Keihin, not Mikuni) so I'm pretty sure your procedure is gonna be different. Don't you have the handle-bar mount cold start?

Anyhooo- my buddy's 2012 310 was a one kicker too. Yours will be eventually, I'm thinking.

Why 92 here in Sweden we have 95 and 98 octane, and I use 98.

Morgan- we have a different octane rating system here (we use the average of the two major rating techniques IIRC) and our 92 is like your 96-97 I think. At shops and some gas stations we can buy higher octane (115+ in someplaces?) but it's can be $10-20/gal; current California prices are under $3/gal and I bet some place in Wyoming, Oklahoma, or Texas has gas for under $2. you can hit google up and get the excruciatingly painful details. Our state has the suckiest gasoline in the US- and where sworzeen lives it's the worst of the worst (the irony is that he lives next door to some of the biggest refineries around).

The stuff still works in high compression engines, though. weird.

fun fact: regular gas has more energy than hi-test (super, supreme ect). of course, if you could burn diesel, you'd get about 20% more power than either for the same volume.

 

[srowzeen]

So, I could not kick start it tonight, tried maybe 50 times... it wanted to about 10 of those kicks, but it wouldn't do it. Tried to use the throttle and/or choke simultaneously or independent... regardless there was a definite smell of gas. I backed off for a while. Went out after dinner a little pissed and decided to throw caution to the wind and hit the electric start. Fire up pretty darn easy. It died once I let off the choke, hit the start again and it fired up... it was cold and I needed to stay on the choke or throttle a little longer as it died again. I am pretty happy it fired up so easily with the E-Start, just super paranoid using it will shear the key.

Will try again tomorrow.. thoughts are welcome for sure.

 

[R_Little]

Maybe turn up your idle speed a little.
The big screw behind the lick start lever turn it in 1/4 turn.
It should idle around 2200 rpm.
The speedo has a rpm function.

Did you set the TPS with I-beat?

Not to sound condescending, but I bet I could kick start it in 2 kicks!
It's technique and a lot of practice.
Don't give up!

 

[srowzeen]

R_Little - I did not set the TPS with I Beat yet, my local dealer has iBeat and said they could take a look at it if need be. I will give the idle a little twist to the right... assuming left turns it down.

No condescension noted - I take it as "hope"... I bet you and Trench could get the feel and pop it on 1-2 kicks. I was stoked though it started using E-Start very fast and sounded effortless too. I am still nervous about using the e-start though. I will persevere on the kicking though.