2011 TE-310 Sheared Keys & Non-Start

[ghte]

The sensor in my 09 went-made it hard to start and put the fan on when the ignition was turned on.
Think you may have 2 electrical issues here one being the sensor and the other your loom-take the tank off and trace the wires- you may have a rubbing short somewhere. Are/is there a fail message on your speedo perhaps.

 

[srowzeen]

The sensor in my 09 went-made it hard to start and put the fan on when the ignition was turned on.
Think you may have 2 electrical issues here one being the sensor and the other your loom-take the tank off and trace the wires- you may have a rubbing short somewhere. Are/is there a fail message on your speedo perhaps.

GHTE - I replaced the sensor last night and will try chasing the wires back to see if we pinched or boogered up the wiring somehow. Also, worried maybe with all the moving the battery about we might have giggled something loose. Will look this over too. We did not try to start it yet since the tank is off, I wanted to test the coil first to make sure it isn't the culprit.

Also had posted an answer earlier but it is still sitting in moderator approval mode.

 

[srowzeen]

one other thought - bike was running fine prior to all of this - had replaced the flywheel key, buttoned it up and rode it for 10-15 mins. Brought it back, and it say idling - it was idling a little high, so we rolled it back a bit. Given the JD Tuner on this and then rolling the idle back - could it be that we might be starving it for gas now? And to answer GHTE - we did get codes. E41 seems to pop up all the time. I have no idea what these codes mean.

On the un published post a couple days ago we did get backfire with starter fluid, but so much it knocked the boot from the intake off the engine. This is where the smoke is coming from. I am confused as to why the combustion seems to be happened with blow back through intake and not through exhaust. Assuming the exhaust valves are not opening... or some other weird anomaly is happening.

 

[Trenchcoat85]

We put starter fluid in the air intake and hit the electric start- the bike fired and popped hard... smoke came out like before and we quickly realized the smoke was coming from the boot to the air intake being blow off the engine. (ie: not going through engine and out the exhaust we assume) We tightened it back up and sure enough it blew it off again. So we are trying to figure this out as this is likely contributing to the non-start.

So we are getting a nice spark.
Still have the black CTS in there, will have the new one tomorrow or Monday.
Good fuel- at least it appears to be - its flowing freely from the tank and the fuel pump is putting pressure on the line, as we pulled the line off the rear of the tank it squirted back fairly hard from the built up pressure. We haven't checked the injector though. We got super thrown off on the boot being blown off.

So timing?
CTS?
Pulse coil still (even with good spark)?
Key sheared...? We are really struggling to believe this is the problem since we truly followed all the steps as described by everyone on here.

The other thing that is killing us is the bike back fires like a beast, even when the key isn't sheared...

So all thoughts are welcome.

srowzeen and I had a pm conversation in which we discussed this previously. here are my thoughts:

• getting at least one spark, so the coil is probably okay- along with wiring.
• seems like a timing problem- ignition or valve.
• valve could be stuck, bent or burnt (intake, i'm thinking). possible valve timing: chain jumped or broke
• ignition timing could be affected by CTS (we're thinking it's ok) or pulse coil (yes, still) or SHEARED KEY
• the chances of a bad ECU are very small

anyone else?

 

[Trenchcoat85]

can you take the JD out of the circuit without too much hassle?

 

[Trenchcoat85]

The code on the speedo display (E41) supposedly is the software version. I had it on my '14- until I put a Endurance II on, which is a much nicer display ($45 on eBay).

Don't sweat the code, except if it says "FAIL".

 

[R_Little]

srowzeen and I had a pm conversation in which we discussed this previously. here are my thoughts:

• getting at least one spark, so the coil is probably okay- along with wiring.
• seems like a timing problem- ignition or valve.
• valve could be stuck, bent or burnt (intake, i'm thinking). possible valve timing: chain jumped or broke
• ignition timing could be affected by CTS (we're thinking it's ok) or pulse coil (yes, still) or SHEARED KEY
• the chances of a bad ECU are very small

anyone else?

Timing problem = Sheared key. 90%

 

[R_Little]

one other thought - bike was running fine prior to all of this - had replaced the flywheel key, buttoned it up and rode it for 10-15 mins. Brought it back, and it say idling - it was idling a little high, so we rolled it back a bit. Given the JD Tuner on this and then rolling the idle back - could it be that we might be starving it for gas now? And to answer GHTE - we did get codes. E41 seems to pop up all the time. I have no idea what these codes mean.

On the un published post a couple days ago we did get backfire with starter fluid, but so much it knocked the boot from the intake off the engine. This is where the smoke is coming from. I am confused as to why the combustion seems to be happened with blow back through intake and not through exhaust. Assuming the exhaust valves are not opening... or some other weird anomaly is happening.

Sounds like it's sparking with the intake valves open.

Well i think it is either a skipped timing chain (unlikely) or a sheared key (very likely).

 

[Trenchcoat85]

...I am confused as to why the combustion seems to be happened with blow back through intake and not through exhaust. Assuming the exhaust valves are not opening... or some other weird anomaly is happening.

well, you're on the right track, but on the wrong end of the valve train: it's is more likely to be intake valves not closing, rather than exhaust valves not opening. And like that other thread showed, a broken spring could cause your problem. Husky had some minor spring problems on '11 & '12 x-lites.

If (if) it's a valve timing problem.

I'm with R_Little here, though- given the history of your flywheel key and the timing characteristics of the bike: sheared key. Of course, it could be bent a bit too. If we're putting numbers on it: 60%

 

[srowzeen]

can you take the JD out of the circuit without too much hassle?

I can take this out for giggles, doesn't seem to be too much of a problem. I will look tonight though. Sorry I havent been on due to travel and the like.

 

[srowzeen]

The code on the speedo display (E41) supposedly is the software version. I had it on my '14- until I put a Endurance II on, which is a much nicer display ($45 on eBay).

Don't sweat the code, except if it says "FAIL".

Good to know!

 

[srowzeen]

Timing problem = Sheared key. 90%

R_Little - Thank you - so my next step, which should have been done this weekend, but "honey-do" took over - will be to crack the case open and observe the key to see if we sheared it. I didn't have a spare key, so I shot over to Munroe & Sons in SF and of course they didn't have one either. I ordered a couple from them and then also ordered a couple from another local dealer. ( at this rate, I need more than one) Once I have them, I will proceed to do the surgery, didn't want to open her up without all the parts. Here is another concern of mine. If that nut spun off again, I am worried this is all this nut does - spin off. BECAUSE - we tightened it down to the spec with a torque wrench (no impact driver) and added the Loctite to it. If that thing spun off again, I am going to be reluctant to do it again, knowing the nut will spin off. That said - I don't know, what I don't know yet. But want to be thinking ahead - bad nut? Whats the fix a new one? One that doesn't spin off - if there is such a thing.

 

[srowzeen]

well, you're on the right track, but on the wrong end of the valve train: it's is more likely to be intake valves not closing, rather than exhaust valves not opening. And like that other thread showed, a broken spring could cause your problem. Husky had some minor spring problems on '11 & '12 x-lites.

If (if) it's a valve timing problem.

I'm with R_Little here, though- given the history of your flywheel key and the timing characteristics of the bike: sheared key. Of course, it could be bent a bit too. If we're putting numbers on it: 60%

Goes back to my concern over that nut. Also worried I've done something else wrong, but will open her up and see what I have. Thank you for the education. I am getting my caboose mixed up with the engine. Broken spring (sigh) - well lets go after the key and go from there. One question, when installing the key I notice it doesn't sit in the key way all that easily, needs some persuasion. Is this normal? And should I tap it down snug?

 

[Trenchcoat85]

Goes back to my concern over that nut. Also worried I've done something else wrong, but will open her up and see what I have. Thank you for the education. I am getting my caboose mixed up with the engine. Broken spring (sigh) - well lets go after the key and go from there. One question, when installing the key I notice it doesn't sit in the key way all that easily, needs some persuasion. Is this normal? And should I tap it down snug?

betcha your flywheel nut is fine. If your woodruff key sheared again, it's going to be the tapered mating surfaces that are the problem. Inspect them by touch, feeling for any little burr. After that use the sharpie or dykem trick and some rogue or lapping compound and get those surfaces fitted. clean them up, hit it with the Locktite (bearing stuff) and the shaft threads with 272 (wait- put Locktite activator on both first) put the flywheel & nut on and torque down +10% on the spec at least. (btw, the key should fit firmly but not really hafta tap it- maybe to level it. make sure both keyways are clear) ....OTOH- if the nut costs $4.75 (?) pick one up.

...and if it is not sheared, pull the valve cover and see whats up.

 

[R_Little]

betcha your flywheel nut is fine. If your woodruff key sheared again, it's going to be the tapered mating surfaces that are the problem. Inspect them by touch, feeling for any little burr. After that use the sharpie or dykem trick and some rogue or lapping compound and get those surfaces fitted. clean them up, hit it with the Locktite (bearing stuff) and the shaft threads with 272 (wait- put Locktite activator on both first) put the flywheel & nut on and torque down +10% on the spec at least. (btw, the key should fit firmly but not really hafta tap it- maybe to level it. make sure both keyways are clear) ....OTOH- if the nut costs $4.75 (?) pick one up.

...and if it is not sheared, pull the valve cover and see whats up.

Yup!

When these keys shear the flywheel spins and gets a big bur on it that prevents it from going on straight again. I bet the nut loosened because of such a burr.

When mine sheared (one day after the dealer replaced the work gear!) the burr was so bad I threw the flywheel out.
It was easy for me because a buddy gave be his spares after he traded his TE250 race bike for a Yamaha.

If it is sheared again. I can tell you how to lap it so it won't happen again.

 

[srowzeen]

So the nut is one, the Loctite held, I am digging in tomorrow to see what is happening with the key. Stayed tuned. If the key sheared again - how would I lap it?

 

[MorganD]

Had the same problem with 2 of my bikes. The problem was solved when i torqued it to 100nm instead of 75nm.

 

[Trenchcoat85]

So the nut is one, the Loctite held, I am digging in tomorrow to see what is happening with the key. Stayed tuned. If the key sheared again - how would I lap it?

I've never lapped a flywheel. That being said, here's what this internet expert (hah) would do:

• clean both surfaces
• inspect, by touch too, both surfaces (find something? deal with it now)
• mark the male surface (aka crank) with a blue sharpie or Dykem; female surface too?
• dry-fit the flywheel and oscillate it a few times. gently. maybe put the nut on by hand- then remove it
• take the flywheel off and see what the dye looks like (to get a feeling for what we're dealing with)
• mark it up again
• put a light coating of (valve grinding compound, tripoli rogue, extra-abrasive toothpaste... whatever) on the crank
• install the flywheel
• oscillate again. checking a lot.
• I think for the 1st round- I would move the flywheel all the way around the shaft, and thereafter just concentrate on where the area where keyways match up.
• if most of the dye and all of the low spots (?) are gone or taken care of- done.
• go easy; take your time- you can't put metal back on very easily.

I would maybe use 75lbs like our Swedish friend above suggested; others have said 10lbs over (65lbs). Of course: clean, clean, clean, re-inspect, Lock-tite(s) and activator (but with steel on steel- this might be a bit overkill)

I also might heat the flywheel lightly (110-120°) and cool the crank with Dust-Off right before installing. caveat: magnets don't like a lot of heat, but OTOH if you think how hot your motor gets... you'll be fine.

don't forget to install the woodruff key <grin>.

maybe someone who has actually lapped a flywheel or two (besides lapping valves, I mean) will chime in and hopefully point out any major misconceptions on my part.

(before starting all this- check the torque on the flywheel nut before removing the flywheel)

If you can, take pictures along the way for us- and future readers.

good luck.

 

[dartyppyt]

Clean flywheel with carb/contact cleaner. Cover both mating surfaces with blue sharpie (inside flywheel and crank)
I used medium valve lapping grit. That way the sleeve adhesive bites.
Put lapping compound on just enough to cover surfaces.
Move flywheel back in forth. Keep inspecting, till blue sharpie stains are removed.
Clean with carb/contact cleaner till grease free.
Repeat process one more time.
Both contact surfaces in flywheel and crank have to be 100% grease free.
Install keyway. Then coat crank and inner flywheel mating surfaces with sleeve retainer compound.
Do not use fingers due to oil on your hands. Put latex free gloves on.
Push flywheel on and align. Tap flywheel with hammer and socket to set it.
Install your nut and torque.
Let sit over night so oil bath stator doesn't defeat the sleeve retainer till it dries.
If temps are cool in your area. I use heat gun or hair dryer to warm the flywheel up before putting sleeve retainer compound on. Leave the crank end cooler.

Next time you take flywheel good luck! You'll need heat, puller and an impact gun.

 

[Trenchcoat85]

Clean flywheel with carb/contact cleaner. Cover both mating surfaces with blue sharpie (inside flywheel and crank)
I used medium valve lapping grit. That way the sleeve adhesive bites.
Put lapping compound on just enough to cover surfaces.
Move flywheel back in forth. Keep inspecting, till blue sharpie stains are removed.
Clean with carb/contact cleaner till grease free.
Repeat process one more time.
Both contact surfaces in flywheel and crank have to be 100% grease free.
Install keyway. Then coat crank and inner flywheel mating surfaces with sleeve retainer compound.
Do not use fingers due to oil on your hands. Put latex free gloves on.
Push flywheel on and align. Tap flywheel with hammer and socket to set it.
Install your nut and torque.
Let sit over night so oil bath stator doesn't defeat the sleeve retainer till it dries.
If temps are cool in your area. I use heat gun or hair dryer to warm the flywheel up before putting sleeve retainer compound on. Leave the crank end cooler.

Next time you take flywheel good luck! You'll need heat, puller and an impact gun.

hey, dartyppyt... you've stressed "latex-free" gloves a couple of times. What's the issue with them?

and since you've done the flywheel lapping and I haven't- it's good to see how much crossover we have!

thanks.