Discussion in 'Common topics' started by Vinduro, Mar 16, 2011.
Ok, some how my numbers were way off. After racing the Enduro last weekend the balance felt way off. So this weekend went back in the garage to recheck what they were. Somehow my rear was at around 127mm rider sag Not sure how that happened, or maybe because I had my kid help me
Now, after making sure my rear is set properly(with lots of tape measure education and the other kid taking pictures), my numbers are-
Rider sag- 104mm
Thats better! No wonder I was at 57mm static !!
The front is still around-
From my understanding, this means my fork spring are too stiff, right? If so, how many sizes should I drop? I need to go find out stock springs KG now.
I'll let Dwight chime in but welcome to the Cafe Chopper club. I weigh 195 and dropped to 40 springs. Dwight has been a tremendous help and I got my fork springs/sags almost perfect. Thing carves like butter! Just working on some valving issues and my clickers are leaking.
Cafe Chopper, that's classic.
Just put new springs in mine. I am 195 and had to drop to a 40. With 6mm of preload on spring, I am @ 73mm. Total difference and this bike carves like butter.
Nice to know. What's your bike and what are your stock springs?
Also did dropping rates alter the way your valving reacts being lower in the stroke?
I had to go up 3 clicks on comp/ about down 3 clicks on rebound. The rear shocks have to go up to 6 or 6.2 yet.
The forks are still initially harsh on square edged bumps. I even increased air volume to get them to bottom. My forks/shocks were revalved. I have a new valving kit coming tonight or tomorrow night, that should fix these 45 marzocchis.
The TC 50's, were revalved and waiting on them to tell me what size the stock springs are. I think they are 42's. I will go to 40's on them as well, adjust my preload, then I think it is just a matter of oil height/clickers on them.
Dwight's settings are great. Even the guy that sold me the new valving kit asked me what my front sag numbers were. I told him and he thought the numbers were great. Dwight also recommended 5wt and so did this tuner.
I am hoping to get these forks to feel like my Showas. I think I'll be close.
What forks are on your bike? Are they harsh as well?
I noticed rear travels differed between model years. I suspect it is related to the frame change. The difference is approx. 1" (25mm). Do you still recommend your 11% static & 34% rider sag rules for the eariler year bikes?
The reason being is these %'s would translate to 35mm static sag, 109mm rider sag [based on 320mm travel].
If we would target 30mm static sag, 101mm rider sag... then the %'s calculate out slightly lower at 9% static & 32% rider sag.
On 2008 and earlier CR/WR125:
Fork travel = 300mm
Rear travel = 320mm
On 2009 and later CR/WR125:
Fork travel = 300mm
Rear travel = 296mm
Sounds like you'll have yours dialed in quite well! My 50mm open marzoocchis were harsh on everything from being super Low in the stroke I think. I had them revalved and they are still a little tough on the abrupt square edge stuff but fantastic on whoops type stuff.
I'm now dealing with the new 48mm KYB. They're a little harsh but not as bad as the marz in stock form. I haven't ridden it since I reset the rear sag. That in itself should make a big improvement and be more balanced. My front springs need to get sorted though, not enough sag race or static but I worry about being too low in the stroke again. After a ride I can see that the tubes go down pretty far on the stanctions.
Just keeping my fingers crossed, but I think I got the Zokes figured out. Dwight has been awesome and a huge help, period! I dropped my springs (6mm preload) and oil wt to 5 like he recommended. The only way I could get my 45's to bottom, was to lower my oil to 140mm (even with the 40 springs). I know, everyone says don't go under 130mm (But how do you get them to bottom). Then I went up 2 clicks like he recommended. Then my compression screws started leaking but I still was harsh on all the sharp, square edged bumps. This bike has always had a problem of deflecting off of stuff at low and high speeds, plus not turning good. My confidence dropped, because I was constantly wondering if the front end was going to kick out from under me. Surprised, that I haven't broke my collar bone yet. I was always on guard looking ahead to avoid stuff and then out of the blue, I would lose my front end.
My forks, when riding, are further down in the stroke, but it feels more balanced and planted. I too was concerned.
I have been keeping an eye on these valves to modernize the harsh issues for 45/50 Zokes. So, I decided to pull my forks completely apart. 3 out of 4 holes in the bottom of the base valves, had burrs in them (From factory machining), closing off the ports 1/4 of the way? Well, one burr was under one of the shims, from breaking loose. I guess my question? Why wasn't this caught, when the forks were revalved. I won't talk bad about anyone, because it could have just been an employee oversight. I did take pictures to back it up and is something to look for?
Last night my new valves got here and I measured the provided shims, and installed them in the new base valves. I also put new seals in my clickers. I was told by the new tuner, to go with a maximum oil level of 125mm/5 wt oil. The valves are huge compared to the Marzocchi ones. They look like Chicago sewer pipes (They have got to flow some oil, now!). He also gave me 5 more clicks of compression adjustment. I rode a couple times last night and adjusted the clickers till I bottomed. I bottomed with the new oil height. Then went up 2 clicks like Dwight suggested. These forks are totally plush, carve better in turns, seem to brake good, but guess what? No, initial harshness on the square edged stuff! Actually, they feel like my old Showas on my old RMZ 250. I still need to do some real, log, creek jumping stuff to fine tune the clickers.
I will do a better post, after some more testing. Also, I still need to go up on the rear spring since I get the sag results but way too much preload, to get there. Now I am getting suspender poor, cause I have to do the Wr 125 yet.
Just a note: I did a good fork alignment thread under General, Tinker Tips. One issue I was having, long ago. The forks would never align properly with the bounce, brake and compress method. I seem to be getting different alignments. So, this is a way I don't have any stiction issues and second guess. This helps out alot in initial, mid and full strokes.
Update: did some more work with the front forks over the weekend. Lil under the weather but did get some progress. The tuner thought I should try going up on my fork spring rate some more and try to drop some mm on my preload spacers. I have a set of stock 42.5 springs that were tested and come out as a 43. I installed them and my forks sat too high. What's weird, is with the new valve, the forks dropped some on static and rider sag from my previous numbers with the stock valves. Guess it's the oil flow?
I made some pvc spacers and bought 1mm shims, before finally cutting my stock spacers for my final preload setting. With the 43 springs and 1mm of preload, I am at 42 static and 71 race. I rode the bike and no harsh on bottom and seemed pretty plusher up top. I changed my oil level to 130mm and also read a tip to tighten the lower triple clamp to 9ftlbs/blue loctite instead of 12ft lbs. I backed comp clickers out till I bottomed then ran up two clicks.
This is the best these forks have ever worked. Dwight's sag settings/new valve have done wonders for these 45's. They're plush, make the bike feel more planted and improve turning.
I definately recommend this new valve thru Rider's Edge Suspension in Vernon, BC. (250) 542-0269.
Ian McKill was great, set me up with a good shim kit, as well for my riding area. What is great, he takes the time out with you on the phone and explains everything well and the reasoning, behind it. The valves are like $159, then I also bought the shims which were $50. I could have used some of my existing shims to reduce costs, but figured that i'd be missing one or two, then have to waste time to order those. Glad I did because I would of been short about 6 shims. He also sent me the stack specs needed for the rebound. He suggested just leaving the rebound alone to try. It seems to be working fine, with what was in there.
I wish I would of had this valve sooner, because it definately fixes the square edge/harshness on the 45's. Ian and I talked about what I had to do, to try and get these forks to work, without the new valve. He said that he tried the same things and we both did similar attempts, in order to get them to work. No doubt, this valve is a must have for the 45's and he has one as well for the 50's.
Anyone have recommendations on my question from above? I'm not sure what to target for sag settings.
Okay we got us a plush woods winner here! It is awesome and never thought these Zokes could work like this.
I had a set of 45 Eibach springs. So thought I'd try them with little preload.
I set the preload @ 1mm so I could benefit from first part of stiffer spring.
Stactic front 42mm
Rider sag is 75mm
Oil Height is 130mm down from 125mm (Update, went 140mm,perfect with larger springs).
My weight is in street clothes 200, uh oh up 5lbs. Time to cut off donuts.
Rider's Edge , new 45 valve and their shim stack.
5wt Maxima fork oil
Backed new valve clicker out 30 clicks (Riders Edge gave me 5 more clicks on compression), bottomed. Ran total 5 clicks in.
With the old valve that was revalved, by well known tuner. It never performed like this. It must have been holding up the fork due to oil flow because I have better sag numbers, using the same springs with new valve.
Definately, have to get another valve for son's 06.
Matt R: I thought the same thing about going 108 ish but now with the front fixed I like the height of 105. Feels more balanced front to back. @ 108mm, it felt like my front didn't want to stick as good using the front brake hard.
I am sure Dwight will respond.
I still can't believe, they are the same forks. I you have these Zoke 45's this valve will save you all that harshness grief and deflection. Plus Dwight'sag numbers are a great tool!
Ok, I've got two sets of fork springs that came with the 300('09), and no markings of what rate they are. I'm assuming, and we all know how that works out, one set is stock. Who could check them for me besides a suspension guy? I see from a previous post the stock preload spacer is 48mm long. Mine were 23mm and 26mm when I tore them apart the first time.
Sounds like you have twin chamber 50 mm zokes. Mine are 25mm but you have the 5mm rings on inside to change preload. I sent my springs out to have them tested to be 100% sure. One set of my 42.5's are 43's.
they're the open chambers, I think the previous owner was changing the preload and didn't get too precise lol. At least I'm in the ballpark now.
Various magazines/publications testing the CTS are saying about running a 40-60mm static. Also the new 2012 449's comes with a progressive spring to give this static sag figure. So my question is, is CTS static and race sag viewed as an indivdual setup unlike the Jap bikes etc.... and having 33static and 103race might be wrong?
Taken some measurements today so here they are of my two bikes:
2011 TE449 (unridden new bike)
forks in yokes 11mm
preload ring count 20
2009 KTM 300 exce (has 2008 250sxf cc forks. the rear has been revalved and all set up by the former suspension mechanic to david knight)
The KTM is the best its ever been. In the woods, open fields its so controlled gearing is 13/51 using the red pv spring. On braking bumps its a little harsh on the rear the bike tracks well in a straight line and cross rutting its stable. I like my suspension soft and race the KTM in enduros.
Making the comparison between the KTM and Husky. The Husky isn't run in so those figures I suspect will increase i'm a 200lbs rider. I have a set of new TC449 forks to go onto the TE449. Does anyone have any comments on the setup for both bikes? I will also be racing the Husky in enduros
Here are the New Base Valves that fix the 45 Marzocchi and Twin Chamber 50 Marzocchi Forks. They get rid of the Harshness, which is common in these forks. I got them from Rider's Edge Suspension, Vernon BC. Ian McKill will also design you a new shim stack based on your weight and rider ability. Total valves and shim stack set me back $200. Plus he can calculate your spring rate, oil height and spring preload.
It turned my forks into a set that is up there with other forks. Best investment I ever did compared to just a revalve, that I waisted money on.
Look at the difference in the valve size, plus you go to 5 wt oil. Old Marzocchi valve is on right. New valve is on left.
Here is a picture of the valve installed with new shim stack on my Twin Chamber 50's
My 50 twin chambers kinda suck, and they have been valved. Beat me to death all summer. Im going to try this out, give jake something to do other than watch oprah, thanks for the info!