What is your Spoofer Plug experience?

[Roger 04 RT]

......so I disconnected the wuka to take the bike to get mossed and derestricted (which didn't happen). Didn't get to ride it until this morning, because of torrential rain. Well, from running a lot better last week with the new brisk plugs and wuka connected, today the bike ran worse than ever before.
I could only just keep it from stalling, even when I was ready for the stumble. Anyone who wasn't ready or new of the problem would have stalled every time they dropped the clutch. Life and death sh!t! It wasn't even that bad when I bought it.

I didn't run the bike for 3 minutes, or perform an ecu reset, so I wonder if the bike had adapted the wuka temp and now is overcompensating for the real ambient temp, making it run even leaner?

As you guessed, when you removed the Wuka, the mixture instantly became 6% leaner than normal (14.7:1) and you felt the effects of running with a VERY lean mixture of 15.6:1. It will take a tank of fuel or so to adapt back to stock, which is where it was after adapting out the Wuka.

One of the reasons that riders believe that temperature spoofing works is that:

A) They install it and the bike feels better, (temporarily a little richer than stock)
B) Then ride with it for a while and wonder if the effect is really there (adapted back to stock)
C) Then remove it and feel lean stumbles while the bike is temporarily leaner than stock.

 

[Roger 04 RT]

Just to add a couple thoughts, I run with an LC-1 Wideband in my exhaust and have documented the effect. Here is a link to pages with the Mixture Adaptation tests: http://www.advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=23675190&postcount=800

 

[VFORCEJOHN]

I guess I'm a little biased to actually installing performance items that work. I don't mean to Ruffle any feathers.

I've owned my own Dynojet dyno/CNC machine shop for the past 18 years now. Google Vforcejohn. You'll see I'm all over the world and I'm the #1 Kawasaki and BRP (canam) EFI tuners in the USA. I also do a lot of Custom CNC lathe, mill, EDM machining.

When customers come in looking for a tune or more performance from a machine. Imagine me plugging in a "spoofer" and making a few runs with it vs actualy tuning a VE table to a target air fuel ratio. You folks aren't the only ones to think of these OR see these on Ebay. I've tried these MANY times for a quick fix......


So with these Spoofers. How are you overcoming the RICH condition happening from 7000 on up? I'm removing -22 to -30 from the VE table? Spoofer isn't doing this.

How are you overcoming the EXTREME lean condition that happens at 1750-2500 rpm at 2-20% throttle? You need to add 12-25% fuel in these areas? Spoofer isn't doing that.

How are you overcoming the Lack of Fuel accelerator pump enhancments? Spoofer can't do this?

How are you going to hit your target air fuel ratio? Spoofer can't accurately hit a richer target afr without being driven until it "maps" the ecu from the spoof...If it worked...and then you're still going off the stock VE table, just an altered version of it.

How long is it going to take for that spoofer to work?? PC5 is instant? So the time spent installing the PC5 is the total time for success. Tuning in a Spoofer takes MILES..If it happens at all.


Sure the PCV is more expensive and takes 30 mins to install. You get what you pay for.

I've modified these 650cc Rotax motors in the DS650X for over 10 years now with everything from 650cc to 895cc making 200+ hp with a turbo and NOS. Tuning a 50 rwhp machine is a piece of cake. I Intend to make this a Mild 730cc with some cams and a CNC head port. I should be able to extract 75-80 rwhp pretty easily.


As for cracking the code on the ECU. Contact Pisiani, they are in Italy or Vtech.se in Sweden. I use them for EFI reflashing on Kawy and Canam machines for both the Mitsu/Denso ecu's, Seimens, and Bosch.

IF anyone is ever in North East PA and has their Husky, Stop by my shop and I'll let you ride mine (weather permitting). You won't ride out of here with your stock machine I guarantee!!

John

 

[nev..]

One of the reasons that riders believe that temperature spoofing works is that:

A) They install it and the bike feels better, (temporarily a little richer than stock)
B) Then ride with it for a while and wonder if the effect is really there (adapted back to stock)
C) Then remove it and feel lean stumbles while the bike is temporarily leaner than stock.

You're suggesting that the bike adapts back to stock with the spoofer fitted without the rider noticing? I know the mind can play tricks on people, that money spent will always give a perceived positive improvement regardless of any actual improvement, but the issue with the TR650 is a very tangible stumble at low revs and small throttle openings, and if the spoofer was adapting back to stock, then the stumble would return, but in B) you appear to have created Schroedinger's motorcycle, one which adapts back to stock, but at the same time does not exhibit the tangible stumble which is an artefact of the stock bike and which was the reason for the spoofer in the first place. Surely it has to be one or the other, it can't be both. You can't wonder if the spoofer is doing anything and also have the spoofer being adapted out of the equation.

In fact, at one stage, I did wonder if my spoofer was doing anything, because I had read lots of opinions in these forums about spoofer adaption and so forth and after 12 months with the wuka fitted I had actually forgotten how bad the bike was when it was stock without the spoofer. I removed it and took it for a ride, and yes, the stumble did return, in fact, my case exactly matches your description above, except for one thing, when I removed the wuka the stumble returned just as it was when the bike was stock. This scenario as you describe above does not prove adaption, quite the opposite, it demonstrates that the ECU is not adapting the spoofer out of the equation, or, if it is, then the effect is so slight as not to be noticeable.

For the first 5000km my stock Terra had a deep grey tinge at the exhaust tip. After I installed the Wuka, the thing which I immediately noticed was that the richer mixture caused the exhaust colour to darken, and the pipes tips were always much blacker like charcoal and the fuel consumption about 5% worse than stock. Now I have had the wuka installed for 10,000km and the colour of the exhaust soot at the pipe tips has never reverted back to the deep grey colour, but has remained a much blacker charcoal colour and the fuel consumption has remained about 5% worse than stock. Now, you might be able to suggest placebo, human fallability, expectation of improvement to explain why the bike improves, and stays improved (no tangible stumbles at low revs and small throttle openings), but what placebo is causing the exhaust colour to remain constant and to maintain fuel consumption about 5% worse than stock?

 

[Roger 04 RT]

Just to mention, I own an air temp shifter which I ran before moving to lambda shifting. So I've got some experience with them too.

The question I would pose, in counter to your thoughtful reply, is this: If an air temperature sensor shifter richens the mixture why can't anyone suggest a measurement of combustion or test protocol that would demonstrate that the mixture has changed? I'm not aware of any maker of air temp shifter that has made or suggested any measurement that shows effectiveness.

To your question about the exhaust: one possibility is that your O2 sensor is dead, disconnected or for some other reason not working. Then the air temp spoofer would be permanently effective.

 

[NorthnTerraTory]

I'm not sure what to believe. All I know is the bike is stumbling much worse than when I first got it stock standard. Nearly unridable. I have manually reset the ecu twice in the past, maybe it needs to be re mossed to bring it back to its original (bad) form. I'll just reconnect the wuka for now, until I can get it into the shop.

 

[Roger 04 RT]

How did you reset the ECU manually? My understanding is that you need some type of electronic signal to reset it.

When Charlie and I worked on his fueling, disconnecting the battery did not reset the Mixture Adaptations according to the AFR measurements we made.

 

[mag00]

Just to mention, I own an air temp shifter which I ran before moving to lambda shifting. So I've got some experience with them too.

Wow, I didn't know you owned a TR650 Husky. How do you like it?

If your theory on adaption held any water, these bikes (or any mapped efi) could not run in a cold climate. The temperature would always be telling the ecu to read off the cold mapping and add fuel as needed, but your assumption is that the ecu would adapt that out. Hmm, very interesting. In plain English, are trying to have us believe the AIT is irrelevant to the function of the bike?

I have not seen any empirical data or test to support your hypothesis.

Carbon build up in the pipe has been predicted and hypothesized by me. Also, it is fair to speculate that carbon fouling in the combustion chamber can build up and create hot spots as well as the buildup causing an increase in compression, both of which can damage the engine.

 

[mag00]

I'm not sure what to believe. All I know is the bike is stumbling much worse than when I first got it stock standard. Nearly unridable. I have manually reset the ecu twice in the past, maybe it needs to be re mossed to bring it back to its original (bad) form. I'll just reconnect the wuka for now, until I can get it into the shop.

Spark plugs have been the culprit in many of these situations. Re-gapping or replacing and/or better plugs seems to help tremendously.

The most significant improvement in drivability came when I added the Brisk Multispark. Power and efficiency improvements. No hesitation in the 3 k, or hard off idle snap. I can finally jump the speed bumps vs going over the bars trying.

I have the Pod filter mod and a better flowing single can, but not total free flowing. Cannisterectomey done. I run Chevron top grade.

 

[hasenpfeffer]

Wow, I didn't know you owned a TR650 Husky. How do you like it?

Roger is likely referring to similar equipment available for his BMW bike(s).

 

[Roger 04 RT]

I didn't know you owned a TR650 Husky. How do you like it?

I believe you know that I don't own a TR650 but TRZ_Charlie who's become a good friend, does. My comments are informed by my work with him on his bike.

If your theory on adaption held any water, these bikes (or any mapped efi) could not run in a cold climate. The temperature would always be telling the ecu to read off the cold mapping and add fuel as needed, but your assumption is that the ecu would adapt that out. Hmm, very interesting. In plain English, are trying to have us believe the AIT is irrelevant to the function of the bike?

This really isn't my theory of operation, it's how Bosch (and others) explains the operation of the ECUs they build, which is also consistent with many other ECUs. Because so many BMW riders did not have a clear picture of how Mixture Adaptation worked (and many like you doubted it) I decided to set up a series of tests and measurements to prove or disprove the written documentation I had. The link to those tests is below.

Your specific comment about Mixture Adaptation and the temperature sensor somehow being at odds with each other isn't right. The Temp sensor, Barometric pressure sensor and battery voltage are key to short and long term fueling. Here a couple examples:

--You're cruising along and temperature, pressure and voltage are all stable. The the O2 sensor and Mixture Adaptation have brought the Short Term and the Long Term trims into line and the cruise mixture is 14.7:1. Now something happens to the actual air temperature (e.g. quick ride into the mountains, or you stop at a traffic light and hot air is drawn in off the engine). Without an air temp sensor, the Short Term adaptive trims would have to all change to cope with the temperature change--this takes time. By having an Air Temp sensor, it signals the warmer or colder air and the ECU and O2 sensor can hold 14.7:1 without having to adjust the Short or Long Term trims other than to compensate for linearity errors of the Temp sensor.​

​

--The temperature sensor is also helpful during cold starting when the bike is not operating in Closed Loop. It and the Engine Temp sensor help the ECU calculate a start-up and warm-up enrichment factor.​

I have not seen any empirical data or test to support your hypothesis.

Link to detailed Mixture Adaptation measurements: http://www.advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=23675190&postcount=800

 

[spiderman]

I'm not sure what to believe. All I know is the bike is stumbling much worse than when I first got it stock standard. Nearly unridable. I have manually reset the ecu twice in the past, maybe it needs to be re mossed to bring it back to its original (bad) form. I'll just reconnect the wuka for now, until I can get it into the shop.

Your experience is pretty much the same as mine. FWIW I have had to get it mossed to get it running right again. Dealer says this is really the only way to do a true ECU reset. I've done this 3 or 4 times and the result is pretty consistent.

 

[NorthnTerraTory]

Your experience is pretty much the same as mine. FWIW I have had to get it mossed to get it running right again. Dealer says this is really the only way to do a true ECU reset. I've done this 3 or 4 times and the result is pretty consistent.

Yeah, I guess I'll just have to wait until they get the part sourced and moss it at the same time. I'll then put the wuka back in. With that and the Brisk plugs hopefully I'll get a few thousand kms of smooth trouble free riding and get to love the bike again. Only more because it will no longer be restricted!

 

[Alex Danielsen]

I guess I'm a little biased to actually installing performance items that work. I don't mean to Ruffle any feathers.

I've owned my own Dynojet dyno/CNC machine shop for the past 18 years now. Google Vforcejohn. You'll see I'm all over the world and I'm the #1 Kawasaki and BRP (canam) EFI tuners in the USA. I also do a lot of Custom CNC lathe, mill, EDM machining.

So with these Spoofers. How are you overcoming the RICH condition happening from 7000 on up? I'm removing -22 to -30 from the VE table? Spoofer isn't doing this.

How are you overcoming the EXTREME lean condition that happens at 1750-2500 rpm at 2-20% throttle? You need to add 12-25% fuel in these areas? Spoofer isn't doing that.

I've modified these 650cc Rotax motors in the DS650X for over 10 years now with everything from 650cc to 895cc making 200+ hp with a turbo and NOS. Tuning a 50 rwhp machine is a piece of cake. I Intend to make this a Mild 730cc with some cams and a CNC head port. I should be able to extract 75-80 rwhp pretty easily.

IF anyone is ever in North East PA and has their Husky, Stop by my shop and I'll let you ride mine (weather permitting). You won't ride out of here with your stock machine I guarantee!!

John

Very interesting input John, and you pinpoint the exact problems with our bikes EFI.! Its such a great engine, but hampered by bad fuelling, and its great to hear that you have released the full potential of it. I would absolutely love to try your bike and feel for myself what a proper tuned TR650 is capable of, but since I am in Europe that's not possible unfortunately..

What hardware would it requite to emulate your results, and can/will you sell a complete setup with your fuel maps loaded onto it.? Does your setup still retains the stock lambda sensor.?

Alex.

 

[Ogre_fl]

Yeah, I guess I'll just have to wait until they get the part sourced and moss it at the same time. I'll then put the wuka back in. With that and the Brisk plugs hopefully I'll get a few thousand kms of smooth trouble free riding and get to love the bike again. Only more because it will no longer be restricted!

Is it particularity hot/humid where you are?
Its your summer, right?

 

[Roger 04 RT]

Wow, I didn't know you owned a TR650 Husky. How do you like it?

If your theory on adaption held any water, these bikes (or any mapped efi) could not run in a cold climate. The temperature would always be telling the ecu to read off the cold mapping and add fuel as needed, but your assumption is that the ecu would adapt that out. Hmm, very interesting. In plain English, are trying to have us believe the AIT is irrelevant to the function of the bike?

I have not seen any empirical data or test to support your hypothesis.

Carbon build up in the pipe has been predicted and hypothesized by me. Also, it is fair to speculate that carbon fouling in the combustion chamber can build up and create hot spots as well as the buildup causing an increase in compression, both of which can damage the engine.

 

[NorthnTerraTory]

Yeah, hot and humid now. Tropical.

 

[VFORCEJOHN]

Alex, I'd be more than happy to share my mapping with you folks. You can buy the PCV tuners for around 300-400 pending where you are at. Loading the mapping is pretty simple and easy to do. You then unplug the OEM o2 sensor. I installed the autotune AT-200 with mine, Powered the autotune right off the factory 02 sensor, so it's fused and comes on ONLY when the motor is started and running. This is not necessary, but a great way to monitor your afr values. You can also add the POD 300 to adjust your mapping right from the machine as you ride. So if you wanted to Cruise and get 15.0 afr to achieve 60 MPG. So be it. You want to hit the offroad and have the power on demand, richen it down to 12.7-13.0 range and it's all there.

I guarantee Absolute success, You'd throw those spoofers in the trash faster than you could install them!!

OR. GO get the Moss reset... spoof again... repeat.

VE table tuning is the only way to achieve proper results over the whole RPM range (especially off idle and past 6750 rpm)

 

[Ogre_fl]

Yeah, hot and humid now. Tropical.

My bike turned awful on me this past summer when it was really hot & humid.
I ended up pulling & gapping the plugs, removing the spoofer and doing a power down reset.
It improved greatly.
I also ended up replacing the plugs and the bike ran pretty much like the day I bought it.
After the temps & humidity dropped a bit I reinstalled the Wuka and it has been running as good as ever.

 

[NorthnTerraTory]

My bike turned awful on me this past summer when it was really hot & humid.
I ended up pulling & gapping the plugs, removing the spoofer and doing a power down reset.
It improved greatly.
I also ended up replacing the plugs and the bike ran pretty much like the day I bought it.
After the temps & humidity dropped a bit I reinstalled the Wuka and it has been running as good as ever.

Yeah, I put in the Brisk plugs and it made a big difference. Haven't reset it since then, I'll just wait to get it mossed in a week or two. Hopefully between the moss and the plugs it will be running sweetly.