TE610 - Vibration!?

[BiG DoM]

My 2009 TE610 with under 18 000km on it just suddenly developed a serious vibration when under load. The bike does not appear to be down on power just has quite hectic engine vibration. This happened after riding a very bumpy dirt road. The Counter Balancer woodruf key rings a bell in my memory bank … where can I get info on this - a good thread or tutorial?
Any other suggestions as to what may be causing this?

 

[BiG DoM]

Ok after a bit of searching it definately sounds like the Counter Balancer so who has done the woodruff key and did you do/check the clutchside as well? Did you use OEM woodruffs or off the shelf? Need to pull the side cover now

 

[BiG DoM]

This is supposedly such a common failure and I seem to have found more input in ADV Rider and Moto Junkie than here?? Strange.

 

[Theo]

Hello.
It happened to me twice and it was always the right hand key of the crankshaft. So, according to my experience, I would suggest that you check that one first.
On the other hand, you've written that the power is the same and that make me suspect damages in other keys, in the balancer shaft.
In order to check the one I broke, you have to remove the clutch cover, the clutch basket and the two gears on the crankshaft.
Then, it will not take much more time to check the one in the balancer shaft, so I would start from the right side.
As I've written 10 Giga times, I always recommend that people make sure, during reassembly, that the oil punp shaft in the clutch cover is aligned with the slot in the crankshaft. Sorry, I may sound boring, but it's an important tip.

For the left hand side, there is another Woodruff key and you need to remove the flywheel in order to check it.

If you need further information, you're welcome.

 

[BiG DoM]

Many thanks Theo, appreciated.

 

[mtne]

What your describing sounds like the woodruff key.......

That said be sure to check the upper engine mount. They tend to vibrate the bolts out and can create a bunch of vibes too..........

 

[BiG DoM]

What your describing sounds like the woodruff key.......

That said be sure to check the upper engine mount. They tend to vibrate the bolts out and can create a bunch of vibes too..........

Thanks - yes did the top mount some years back when I got the bike ... was very loose and put Nylok nuts on it. I feel sure this is the counterbalancer woodruff and will check the other one as well.

 

[BiG DoM]

Ok - Yes turned out to be the nut was just finger tight! Woofruff key badly worn with a piece broken off but luckily captured in the groove.

 

[mekanik]

No damage to the key way? Sounds like you have it all worked out.

 

[BiG DoM]

No damage to the key way? Sounds like you have it all worked out.

Key way looks ok at this stage, guess due to being harder steel. I am waiting to get the woodruff key and will see then what the fit is like. Worse case scenario will get a size bigger and file to fit but am hoping for a quick fix. I also intend to use some heat resistant Loctite on refitting. What I find strange is that the washer has a small bent tang in it that fits into the woodruff key way and so if torqued correctly the nut should not loosen up when the washer is lipped but some say it still works loose over time even after checking and adjusting? I will paint reference marks on it so I can check at a glance when doing the bag filter at oil changes.

 

[Theo]

The washer on my bike doesn't have a tang: it has a slot through which the key passes, so, if the key is shattered, the washer is not locked anymore to the crankshaft. When I had the issue, I found that nut loose, too. And that's the reason for which I expected the engine to have lost power: the gear was pretty free to move on the shaft.
I like what you've written about the crankshaft steel being likely to be harder: I think that they chose a weaker steel for the key so that if something breaks, it won't be neither the shaft, nor the gear. Too weak key and it will shatter too easily, too sturdy and something way more expensive will break. They probably found a compromise. That's another reason for which I used an OEM key to replace the broken one.

 

[BiG DoM]

Interesting point there about the possibility of a sacrificial woodruff key - many engines have such considerations. A BMW 1200GS ADV I had got a hydrolic lock due to sucking water in during a river crossing. Even after clearing the water from the cylinder heads through the spark plug holes it still sucked more water from the air box once upright and stripped a few teeth off the starter ring gear … while disappointing it was better than damaging something bigger!

The tang on the washer is small. The woodruff was … well rough

 

[Theo]

After having seen your pictures, I've checked a used locking washer I have and I've found out that it has a little tab just above the aferementioned slot. Sorry, I didn't remember it.

 

[Nconoan]

Hi all,

My Husky developed a similar vibration. Prior to that, it was making a really nasty engine noise at idle (kinda of a clacking noise), cool or warm. On the last ride I took it on, all of a sudden the noise stopped while cruising at around 50mph. It was immediately replaced by a shuddering vibration that came on ever couple of seconds and lasted about a second. Shut the bike down, restarted ok, ran ok, seemed to have power so I limped it home in 3rd, vibrating the whole way. From my forum perusing it seems like it is likely a snapped woodruff key (one or multiple ones). My question is, how do I check the key that locates the layshaft, as this is my biggest suspect right now? Do I need to split the case to access this? The pinion gear on the left side that runs on the counter shaft has a lot of play to it, which further leads me to suspect the layshaft key has broken. Naturally I will check the other keys too, as I think the washer on the RH side of the crankshaft was loose as well. Any advice is appreciated!

Thanks!

 

[Theo]

Sorry but I don't know what is a "layshaft"; is it the countershaft?
Anyhow, there are four Keys:
-One on the LH side, connecting the flywheel with the crankshaft. Since the electric starter spins the flywheel to turn the engine on, if that key is broken, it shouldn't be possible to start the engine; however, the shaft and the flywheel are tapered and so they grip on each other, so maybe that key could be broken even if the engine can be e-started.
-One on the LH side, connecting the counterbalance shaft with a mass.
-One on the RH side, connecting the counterbalance shaft with a gear driven by the crankshaft.
-One on the RH side, connecting the crankshaft with the gear which drives the aforementioned one.
None of these keys need a case splitting to be checked and/or replaced.
Even with a front sprocket and a countershaft showing no noticeable wear, these two have some play, which is smaller than the play you would notice engaging a gear and turning the countershaft. This play, is, as far as I know, normal, and needed in order to let the dogs of the transmission gears engaging with each other when they spin.

 

[Nconoan]

The "layshaft" is what the shop manual calls the weight on the LH side of the counterbalance shaft...probably a translation error. Turns out the culprit was the woodruff key on the RH side of the crankshaft, it had broken into 3 pieces. Checked the other keys, they all looked good, as well as all the keyways, so I got parts coming and should be good to go!

 

[ghte]

Are these issues pertinent to the 610 only or are they a potential matter of concern for the 630's as well?

Cheers.

 

[Flynn]

Right, I've pulled the inner stator cover to replace the gasket. To do this I've had to pull the flywheel which also means taking off the gears to do with the starter motor.

I found that the counterbalance nut is loose, there is also no locking washer on it like on my old 2001 model. The manual also doesn't even specify threadlock for some reason!

I'm going to put some high strength threadlock and torque it back up to 70NM.

I'll cycle down to the garage and grab a coupla pics for you guys of what I mean.

Here's an exert from the manual showing that it doesn't even specify any threadlock



I don't know why they stopped using lock washers personally.

 

[Flynn]

Right, it seems there is a tang in the washer behind the counterbalance shaft nut and that tang came out of the woodruff key slot (which I'm assuming is where it is supposed to be located).

The nut didn't seem noticeably loose, but I undid it, threadlocked it and then tightened it back up to the specified 70nm.

Here are pics of the situation:






these pics don't actually show as much as I thought, figured I'd put them up anyway!

 

[Flynn]

So any ideas why the washer still feels loose but the nut is tight? Has anyone replaced the washer with Nordloc washers or spring washers?