Nicasil plating and piston

[highdez1981430cr]

Anyone have an iron cylinder Nicasil plated?

Who makes the best 430cc air cooled piston?

 

[fran...k.]

As to the nicasil plating powerseal who must have been recomended or else I wouldn't have saved a link to it will do it. http://www.powersealusa.com/repair-process/vintage-steel-cast-repair/ I find the text I link to somewhat suspect as they lump cast iron and steel together but one has free carbon and pore and the other doesn't as well as not all cast iron is the same.

Just for discussion I think there are thermal advantages of having an aluminum cylinder with a hard surface. At one time electrofusion was used which put a wire of some sort in the center of the cylinder and put extreme electricity most likely in a special gas mixture as well and the wire kind of blew up imbedding particles into the aluminum cylinder. Obviously doing this to Iron won't be the same as aluminum. Then there is the thermal conductivity of aluminum, iron and coating you could discuss.

As for the pistons, I have tried to get some meaningful discussion of them here myself. My current opinion is that there isn't any dedicated air cooled 430 pistons. If someone has purchaced a piston with the distance from the crown to the ring groove matching the air cooled origional ones and with the weight matching the air cooled one not the later water cooled one please comment. One could try and search my posts, there are issues with the skirts lining up with the lands in the cylilnder, and blocking off the side transfer area if I recall. Maybe they are non issues the modern four stroke pistons are as short as these things with no skirts.

The woosner one has one ring and the pin is offset. All my wiseco ones are used and probably 15 yeas old so I can't promise they are exactly like a new one, they have two rings and the pin is not offset. If a mahle or the kind cagiva sold is available I would choose that one if I was in the market.

I hate to nit pick but do you want to win races at all costs or are you looking for long life span. I mention this as in search of light weight which would help to win races mahle made the wristpin shorter on the water cooled version, too short for much lifespan. Length of wristpin could be considered, none that I have seen are as long as the origional air cooled 420/430 mahle origional ones.

Fran

 

[highdez1981430cr]

As to the nicasil plating powerseal who must have been recomended or else I wouldn't have saved a link to it will do it. http://www.powersealusa.com/repair-process/vintage-steel-cast-repair/ I find the text I link to somewhat suspect as they lump cast iron and steel together but one has free carbon and pore and the other doesn't as well as not all cast iron is the same.

Just for discussion I think there are thermal advantages of having an aluminum cylinder with a hard surface. At one time electrofusion was used which put a wire of some sort in the center of the cylinder and put extreme electricity most likely in a special gas mixture as well and the wire kind of blew up imbedding particles into the aluminum cylinder. Obviously doing this to Iron won't be the same as aluminum. Then there is the thermal conductivity of aluminum, iron and coating you could discuss.

As for the pistons, I have tried to get some meaningful discussion of them here myself. My current opinion is that there isn't any dedicated air cooled 430 pistons. If someone has purchaced a piston with the distance from the crown to the ring groove matching the air cooled origional ones and with the weight matching the air cooled one not the later water cooled one please comment. One could try and search my posts, there are issues with the skirts lining up with the lands in the cylilnder, and blocking off the side transfer area if I recall. Maybe they are non issues the modern four stroke pistons are as short as these things with no skirts.

The woosner one has one ring and the pin is offset. All my wiseco ones are used and probably 15 yeas old so I can't promise they are exactly like a new one, they have two rings and the pin is not offset. If a mahle or the kind cagiva sold is available I would choose that one if I was in the market.

I hate to nit pick but do you want to win races at all costs or are you looking for long life span. I mention this as in search of light weight which would help to win races mahle made the wristpin shorter on the water cooled version, too short for much lifespan. Length of wristpin could be considered, none that I have seen are as long as the origional air cooled 420/430 mahle origional ones.

Fran

Thanks Fran,
I am looking for Longevity for the new bore and piston.

So is Wiesco the best bet for a 2 ring piston and who would you purchase it from?

I will check out Powerseal USA to see what they recomend.

 

[fran...k.]

I was hoping someone else would post in this thread.

I am not going to recomend the wiseco as I have dis assembled two water cooled 430 engines with those pistons which were all smeared on the sides and not run far enough to get any carbon on top. They probably are fine if you get the bore the right size however they make the piston the same size as the origional one which I believe the actual hole or bore ends in an even or half milimeter size.

Steve/huskydogg offered me one of the mahle water cooled versions with the too short wristpin and I bought a woosner one instead for less $ just to check it out. All the available ones I am aware of are pretty crude compared to what a piston from a modern two stroke husky has in it (my opinion). Even with the missing material for the too short wristpin retaining clips there is probably at least as much bearing area as the wiseco or woosner wristpin. The water cooled one with a re used longer wristpin probably is the best, after an origional one. there appear to be extra grooves for the snap rings of the longer wristpin which could be verified before purchacing. Not specific to husky but it seems that over size pistons keep the same inside dimention and the sides get thicker. Well I only have origional husky ones to verify in this case.

Halls probably has the two ring wiseco piston they did a few years back and weighed it for me and offered me the option to return it if I didn't like it. Do what you want but I would send my cylinder out or do it myself if I had boring equipment and not do an exhchange. If you found someone who sold the pistons regularly and offered boring it would seem that would be a relatively safer source. I never asked but Halls probably would fall in that category.

My comments are mostly from observation as I have pretty much settled on the air cooled 500 and the water cooled 430 to actually burn off tank fulls of gasoline.

Fran

 

[highdez1981430cr]

I was hoping someone else would post in this thread.

I am not going to recomend the wiseco as I have dis assembled two water cooled 430 engines with those pistons which were all smeared on the sides and not run far enough to get any carbon on top. They probably are fine if you get the bore the right size however they make the piston the same size as the origional one which I believe the actual hole or bore ends in an even or half milimeter size.

Steve/huskydogg offered me one of the mahle water cooled versions with the too short wristpin and I bought a woosner one instead for less $ just to check it out. All the available ones I am aware of are pretty crude compared to what a piston from a modern two stroke husky has in it (my opinion). Even with the missing material for the too short wristpin retaining clips there is probably at least as much bearing area as the wiseco or woosner wristpin. The water cooled one with a re used longer wristpin probably is the best, after an origional one. there appear to be extra grooves for the snap rings of the longer wristpin which could be verified before purchacing. Not specific to husky but it seems that over size pistons keep the same inside dimention and the sides get thicker. Well I only have origional husky ones to verify in this case.

Halls probably has the two ring wiseco piston they did a few years back and weighed it for me and offered me the option to return it if I didn't like it. Do what you want but I would send my cylinder out or do it myself if I had boring equipment and not do an exhchange. If you found someone who sold the pistons regularly and offered boring it would seem that would be a relatively safer source. I never asked but Halls probably would fall in that category.

My comments are mostly from observation as I have pretty much settled on the air cooled 500 and the water cooled 430 to actually burn off tank fulls of gasoline.

Fran

Thanks fran,
I am kinda leaning toward the Woosner single ring and just re-ring it more often when a leak down or compression test shows its time.

Have you heard of guys running 250 primary gears on a 430 to spin the motor over faster?

I have a decompression release to spinning it faster would be a bonus.

 

[fran...k.]

As to the primary gears. Without studying the parts sheets going from what I have in the parts pile. It seems the primary reduction gearing of the air cooled (no slot for water pump on crank) wr 430 stuff is the same as the xc500 primary. Even the xc500 into the water cooled. When you get to the 1988 or so wr430 it definately has a primary reduction which would spin the engine faster with the kick start lever. The cr 500 should have a slightly different primary reduction as if you look in the air cooled parts sheets it is a different part and the teeth count out differently on some ebay listings. I think that cr 500 one has four less teeth on the crank gear. That would be the one to use if I was going to switch, however the condition of the teeth on the back of the clutch, the tiny gear is what to watch for. Not sure if the cr 430 primary ratio is the same as the wr without studying the sheets. The size and pitch of all those starting gear teeth changed somewhere around 1985 or 1986. On the later ones the gear on the back of the clutch seems to hold up better but some of the other ones not so in my observation.

Fran

 

[highdez1981430cr]

As to the primary gears. Without studying the parts sheets going from what I have in the parts pile. It seems the primary reduction gearing of the air cooled (no slot for water pump on crank) wr 430 stuff is the same as the xc500 primary. Even the xc500 into the water cooled. When you get to the 1988 or so wr430 it definately has a primary reduction which would spin the engine faster with the kick start lever. The cr 500 should have a slightly different primary reduction as if you look in the air cooled parts sheets it is a different part and the teeth count out differently on some ebay listings. I think that cr 500 one has four less teeth on the crank gear. That would be the one to use if I was going to switch, however the condition of the teeth on the back of the clutch, the tiny gear is what to watch for. Not sure if the cr 430 primary ratio is the same as the wr without studying the sheets. The size and pitch of all those starting gear teeth changed somewhere around 1985 or 1986. On the later ones the gear on the back of the clutch seems to hold up better but some of the other ones not so in my observation.

Fran

Thanks Fran

 

[GaryM]

Hi all,
I just had Rick Hovat bore out two more 430 cylinders for me. Please note one was a rebore I had to do because a local race shop did a bad boring job and it seized . Live and learn. Rick has access to partner that had bored
hundreds of huskies. It is tight but I know it is round and squared straight. One piston I had was a water cooled 430 mahle - no problem to run but not the same as old mahle as Fran said above. Other was a newer wisco - he just purchased a whole bunch of new wisco stock. I really like having the second ring - don't you all think this really helps for long term wear ?? Heres a photo - a bit different shape huh?

I would use Rick.

 

[highdez1981430cr]

Hi all,
I just had Rick Hovat bore out two more 430 cylinders for me. Please note one was a rebore I had to do because a local race shop did a bad boring job and it seized . Live and learn. Rick has access to partner that had bored
hundreds of huskies. It is tight but I know it is round and squared straight. One piston I had was a water cooled 430 mahle - no problem to run but not the same as old mahle as Fran said above. Other was a newer wisco - he just purchased a whole bunch of new wisco stock. I really like having the second ring - don't you all think this really helps for long term wear ?? Heres a photo - a bit different shape huh?

I would use Rick.

View attachment 11116View attachment 11117

That looks exactly like the one i have now.
Yes i like 2 rings to reduce blowby and longevity.
How much is he getting for a complete piston kit w/top end bearing?
How much clearance are you running?

 

[GaryM]

That looks exactly like the one i have now.
Yes i like 2 rings to reduce blowby and longevity.
How much is he getting for a complete piston kit w/top end bearing?
How much clearance are you running?

Even though Wiseco says 3.5 for big bores - he does run them tighter at .003 and a bit. I did ask about that. Check with Rick on pricing. I had a top end bearing. The gentlemen who does his boring is one that owned the same shop I purchased my new 1980 390 31+ years ago. Did I just read that right 31 years ? This is my second 430 and it will be up and running soon. Oh Fran above had some great feedback for me on main and trans bearings on this rebuild.

 

[motortechniek]

Good experiance with powerseal, i run almost 4 years a iron sleeve with nicasil plating, no problem, I use the wossner pistons, but important is to have the bore +0.10 mm over piston dimension, same as you should have to to whit the wiseco piston.

 

[highdez1981430cr]

Good experiance with powerseal, i run almost 4 years a iron sleeve with nicasil plating, no problem, I use the wossner pistons, but important is to have the bore +0.10 mm over piston dimension, same as you should have to to whit the wiseco piston.

are you running the woosner piston in a air coolwd 2 stroke Husky?

 

[GaryM]

Hi,
Just measured that last bore job and it came out @ .0035 top to bottom and no out of roundness with my dial bore gauge Other bike is together so i could not check it quickly but it broke in great. Just to let you know the local guy who bored the cylinder was a .0037. - but found and after it seized at start up he a taper in middle of bore and out of roundness at exhaust port. And of course I did not check that one only in a couple of spots. I was there when he bored it and yes he had trouble with cutter head when I watched him bore and yes I watched him measure it - but he was not husky guy.
I agree the spec sheet says +010 is almost .004. I will carefully break it in and with take it apart after first running just to double check. Any feedback ??

 

[highdez1981430cr]

Hi,
Just measured that last bore job and it came out @ .0035 top to bottom and no out of roundness with my dial bore gauge Other bike is together so i could not check it quickly but it broke in great. Just to let you know the local guy who bored the cylinder was a .0037. - but found and after it seized at start up he a taper in middle of bore and out of roundness at exhaust port. And of course I did not check that one only in a couple of spots. I was there when he bored it and yes he had trouble with cutter head when I watched him bore and yes I watched him measure it - but he was not husky guy.
I agree the spec sheet says +010 is almost .004. I will carefully break it in and with take it apart after first running just to double check. Any feedback ??

Is the Wiseco piston cast or forged?
That determimes total clearance as a forging with high silica content expands less.

 

[Kreza]

G'day, noticed Nicasil in the heading of this thread. Not too sure if this applies to your situation, I owned a BMW 5 series E34, 3.0 litre V8, great car, with Nicasil impregnated aluminium block, not sure if the pistons were aluminium. Piston, rings and bores were known to wear out significantly if poor quality fuel was used. One bad tank of fuel was enough to destroy an engine. You had to run 95 octane or better without any impurities or additives

 

[fran...k.]

Krenza is bringing up something I recall about BMW bikes when they started using hard surfaced aluminum cylinders. There was an interval at which to replace the rings because the plating was really tiny pieces impregnated into the aluminum and trimmed to dimention with diamond tooling. It wasn't like the hard chrome plating you think of on fork tubes.

I think the common thinking is that forged pistons expand more than cast ones. I would expect that wiseco one GaryM pictured is forged if he could post a picture of the bottom I think you will see it is machined out not cast with rounded surfaces like a Mahle one.

As far as what would last longer one or two rings it might not matter if the bottom portion wears out of tolerance first. I think the idea of a one ring piston is the oil on the sides of the bore cools the ring better and a two ring piston with the ring ends significantly offset seals better. It kind of looks like those two rings are thinner than the one origional one.

Fran

 

[highdez1981430cr]

Krenza is bringing up something I recall about BMW bikes when they started using hard surfaced aluminum cylinders. There was an interval at which to replace the rings because the plating was really tiny pieces impregnated into the aluminum and trimmed to dimention with diamond tooling. It wasn't like the hard chrome plating you think of on fork tubes.

I think the common thinking is that forged pistons expand more than cast ones. I would expect that wiseco one GaryM pictured is forged if he could post a picture of the bottom I think you will see it is machined out not cast with rounded surfaces like a Mahle one.

As far as what would last longer one or two rings it might not matter if the bottom portion wears out of tolerance first. I think the idea of a one ring piston is the oil on the sides of the bore cools the ring better and a two ring piston with the ring ends significantly offset seals better. It kind of looks like those two rings are thinner than the one origional one.

Fran

Thanks Fran,
I always thought that forging were more thermally stable than cast.

Decisions, decisions.

What piston would you choose?
Woosner forged single ring or the Wiseco dual ring?