My search for a good running bike. Injector and Sparks..

[etotore]

Had installed Pulstar spark plugs, not a huge difference the bike was still not a super nice bike to ride. Stalls, stumbles now and then,, So 10Km service was up,,
I went head on. to do the valve check myself. All good there.
In the heat of things,

I removed old electronic spoofer from the bike, see picture.
Maybe it was wrongly adjusted, I don't know.
My bike was second hand. (Have the latest FW) installed the larger injector 0 280 158 124 to see how that works.

Also did the Termostat Delete MK4 version.. Highly recommended.

Next day, no test ride just did a 3104KM + ferries and so on. a round trip of the Philippines,, Little raw butt on that ride, so distance used tor test was long enough.
How was the bike? No stumbles No stalls, better overall the whole way. Really happy with the behavior on the trip. Friends testing her gives the same feedback, better bike to drive.

I think, I have found one issue for us living in hot climate, only encountered on very hot days in slow city traffic, lots of stops. Bike will stop on me (will not start before cooling a little bit). Or if I stop the bike it will not start again. I think that it's a flaw in the design for us living in nice warm places. Internal air thermostat is 53-55 Degrees Celsius.
Did throw in when got home a electronic thermometer in front of Air-filter, for fast test. also that one gives high readings. Planning later when temperature gets warmer again to stitch the sensor of the thermometer into the front of air filter so it don't touch the plastic housing.
My fear is that with little movement of bike, at stops the hot air from radiator and motor goes straight up.. and.. feed hot air into the engine. And it will naturally stop.
Inverted inter-cooler


Will come back with proper readings, planning to make a barrier over the radiator on air intake side later.

 

[Mark_H]

Had installed Pulstar spark plugs, not a huge difference the bike was still not a super nice bike to ride. Stalls, stumbles now and then,, So 10Km service was up,,
I went head on. to do the valve check myself. All good there.
In the heat of things,

Good stuff, but lookng at the info from others here I believe the Valve check is unnecessary until at least 30+ k km and then only if problems are experienced.
Pulstars do make a big difference, Brisk plugs are also very good.

I removed old electronic spoofer from the bike, see picture.
Maybe it was wrongly adjusted, I don't know.
My bike was second hand. (Have the latest FW) installed the larger injector 0 280 158 124 to see how that works.

The Dyna-Boost unit you picture should have been working quite well, it also means that the ECU will have corrected all the fuel trims and made the bike run nicely. Everyone who has had one fitted (I was the first) has reported much smoother riding, acceleration and most importantly no stalls.

Bigger injector is the modification that makes the most difference to the actual running of the bike. Because it increases fuelling by approximately 10% across the entire range, it means you lose the sluggish clatter caused by the lean settings, it also means you experience more power at higher revs too.

How do you know that your ECU does have the latest Firmware which is version 8543015/6 - Where and how was it updated?

Also did the Termostat Delete MK4 version.. Highly recommended.

Defintely a very important modification here in PH, I have performed 40 of them so far, total success.

Next day, no test ride just did a 3104KM + ferries and so on. a round trip of the Philippines,, Little raw butt on that ride, so distance used tor test was long enough.
How was the bike? No stumbles No stalls, better overall the whole way. Really happy with the behavior on the trip. Friends testing her gives the same feedback, better bike to drive.

I think, I have found one issue for us living in hot climate, only encountered on very hot days in slow city traffic, lots of stops. Bike will stop on me (will not start before cooling a little bit). Or if I stop the bike it will not start again. I think that it's a flaw in the design for us living in nice warm places. Internal air thermostat is 53-55 Degrees Celsius.

I find it strange that you say you have no stumbles or stalls, but the bike stops on you when hot in the city traffic.
None of us have any problems on the open road at anything above minimum throttle settings. We all experienced the stumbles and stalls in hot city traffic and at minimal throttle opening particularly on take off.
Are you saying the bike stops, ie you still have the problems?
Why will the bike not start again, what is the reading on the coolant temperature scale?

 

[WayneC]

When you indicate you are on the latest firmware version can you specify the Version No ?

The fact the Pulstar plugs did not give any noticeable improvement is more than odd, what was the source of the plugs ?

Re the hot start problem you mention, there was a problem a while back on the G650GS with that, it was differential cooling of engine components and a revised decompression lever was the resolution, for some reason it seemed to be mainly UK owners reporting the G650GS problem

 

[etotore]

This is old scan from my bike.
- :
BMSE : -
Controller Name : BMSE
Part No. : 08543016
Hardware Index : C1
Coding Index : 00
Manufacture Date (YY/MM/DD) : 2013-01-17
MCV : 0.6.4
FSV : 20.30.2
OSV : 2.3.1
Manufacturer : Magneti Marelli
VIN : ZKH0H12A3DV0xxxx
Odometer : 11129.0 km
Factory I-Level : KH24-12-08-500
Actual I-Level : KH24-13-02-500
Fault Codes : 0
No Faults found :
- :
KOMBI18 : -
Controller Name : KOMBI18
Part No. : 08543235
Hardware Index : C0
Coding Index : 03
Manufacturer : MTA
Manufacture Date (YY/MM/DD) : 2013-01-31
MCV : 0.6.4
FSV : 1.5.0
OSV : 3.3.10
Assembly No. : 08543235
Fault Codes : 0
No Faults found :

It was already installed, Brisk plugs from before,, second best plugs if I understand correctly, that is a probable reason.

It was a very hot day in Cagayan De Oro, 37C in the shadow or so the weather report says, (What temperature we had on the streets between buildings in the sun I don't know) temp readings from inside Airbox was in 53-55C or so range if it got above 54 Bike would stop if running on idle speed ( As long as I could keep bike in motion it was moving, but not nicely on the low speed).
Needed to wait 5-10 minutes for temperature to get down to 50-52 in Air-Box area to be able to start if it did stop on me.
Only issue with 10 days of driving.

Dyna-Boost is for sale

Mark_H see PM.

 

[WayneC]

OK understood re the bike ECU firmware revisions, the BMSE is the last US release (Part No. : 08543016) and the iLevel shows it was updated after being shipped from the factory so someone had the knowledge and ability to do the update.

It was already installed, Brisk plugs from before,, second best plugs if I understand correctly, that is a probable reason.

OK, you are saying a previous owner installed the Pulstars and so the source is unknown ?

I am interested in whether they look right or if they look defective in quality, it would be easy for the "cloners" to make a plug without the patented capacitive component

Needed to wait 5-10 minutes for temperature to get down to 50-52 in Air-Box area to be able to start if it did stop on me.

While the temperature went down in the air box it may not have been that re failure to start it may well have been metal cooling rates so sorry but I would not not place much faith in the non start being due air box temp. Look further than scratching on the surface on this

 

[Mark_H]

Mark_H see PM.

Ok so you definitely have the latest Firmware update on your bike and as Wayne C says, it was done after the bike was imported here.
I would be very interested to find out when and where this was done because, as you know there is/was zero dealer support here in PH.
Many have claimed to be able to update but in actual fact all they did was a simple reset and charged big money for it.

I am with Wayne C on the starting when hot issue, something is going on and its not the air box temperature or readout.
One modification I have had good results with is to move the AIT sensor to the right side air intake.
Theoretically it is not actually measuring the temperature of the air entering the engine, but it is measuring real air temperature.
Anyone running a Booster Plug, Wuka or similar device is spoofing the temperature in an unrealistic way, but it seems to work, temporarily.

No PM received but you can get me on SMART 09994337239

 

[Roger 04 RT]

...
Bigger injector is the modification that makes the most difference to the actual running of the bike. Because it increases fuelling by approximately 10% across the entire range, it means you lose the sluggish clatter caused by the lean settings, it also means you experience more power at higher revs too.

...

If the O2 sensors remain connected and operating normally, larger injectors have no long term effect, other than to use up part of the Long Term Trim range (not good). As I've written before, it may be that the Dyna Boost disables or confuses the O2 sensor (also not the best way to go).

Since you are inclined to experiment, I continue to suggest that you buy and install an LC-2 so that you can record riding AFR logs. That will tell you what your mods are doing. The cost of an LC-2 can be as little as $150 but the information gained is invaluable.

 

[Mark_H]

If the O2 sensors remain connected and operating normally, larger injectors have no long term effect, other than to use up part of the Long Term Trim range (not good). As I've written before, it may be that the Dyna Boost disables or confuses the O2 sensor (also not the best way to go).

Since you are inclined to experiment, I continue to suggest that you buy and install an LC-2 so that you can record riding AFR logs. That will tell you what your mods are doing. The cost of an LC-2 can be as little as $150 but the information gained is invaluable.

Thanks for the info Roger, but these guys here (Philippines) are not in the market for equipment that requires monitoring and logging etc. They are widely spaced across several Islands and have budget constraints to contend with. We also have almost zero dealer support if anything goes wrong.
Therefore they are all looking for the cheapest, reliable 'fix' that requires a one time install and no further monitoring or programming etc.
In this case the Dyna-Boost and Injector combination seems to work well and satisfy the requirements. It is also proven over 18 months in this environment.
Obviously the Power Commander, AF-Xied and or LC2 route is more scientifiacally proven, but these guys do not have the monitoring or budget that they will involve.

So far I have offered them some workarounds according to budget (which appears to be a main priority)

Bear in mind, they believe the Wuka King to be the 'best' :-) only because their friends have tried it.

First and cheapest is the Variable Resistor in line to the Air Temperature sensor - works well especially if the ECU is reset and the O2 sensor disconnected.
Second is the Big Injector in conjunction with the Variable Resistor and O2 sensor disconnected.
Third is the Dyna-Boost and Big Injector combination. Proven to work well with no need for follow up adjustments.

All of the above are budget dependent, but most important of all, they require no follow up or monitoring once fitted and working.

Fourth is the Power Commander, EJK, AF-XIED route. Plenty of setting up and monitoring - not desirable and too expensive.

The main criteria here is that no matter how far we go to prove any theory or idea from experience, these guys refuse to believe a 'foreigner' and are totally sceptical about anything that their 'mates' have not verified. Difficult circumstances for anyone who believes in proven theory or scientific evidence.

 

[etotore]

f the O2 sensors remain connected and operating normally, larger injectors have no long term effect, other than to use up part of the Long Term Trim range (not good). As I've written before, it may be that the Dyna Boost disables or confuses the O2 sensor (also not the best way to go).

Since you are inclined to experiment, I continue to suggest that you buy and install an LC-2 so that you can record riding AFR logs. That will tell you what your mods are doing. The cost of an LC-2 can be as little as $150 but the information gained is invaluable.

I have 3104 Km drive with the bigger injector and it has not learned it yet,,, , I agree with you too think that your right, with how the ECU works, but maybe there is a reason..


It continues to run good. My humble idea is that when ECU sends the shortest pulse it can make, based on O2 reading for minimum fuel needed. Because of bigger injector it will probably be 10% or more fuel than it want to give.

Still ECU has a minimum pulse and can not get below that one, so ECU will never manage to adjust down where it want O2 readings to be.

Could this be a reason?


I do have a LC-2, laying around, it's not mounted yet, And as the bike runs now,, I'm not in a rush..
Can it give the forum valuable information, since I have GS-911 too.

 

[etotore]

FYI

My bike the O2 is as from factory, not adjusted.

When I bought the bike second hand, it had Brisk, installed, I did change it to Pulstar.

Maybe Dyna-Boost was mounted wrongly, because blue cable was connected inline to the O2?

 

[WayneC]

I have 3104 Km drive with the bigger injector and it has not learned it yet,,, , I agree with you too think that your right, with how the ECU works, but maybe there is a reason..

You are fooling yourself if you think the BMSE has not trimmed the injector timing, it runs closed loop 90%+

It continues to run good. My humble idea is that when ECU sends the shortest pulse it can make, based on O2 reading for minimum fuel needed. Because of bigger injector it will probably be 10% or more fuel than it want to give.

Still ECU has a minimum pulse and can not get below that one, so ECU will never manage to adjust down where it want O2 readings to be
Could this be a reason ?

No, the BMSE will adjust injector timing and if you did real time logging with the GS911 you would see the figures

You still have not indicated the source of the Pulstar plugs, the fact you did not get any noticeable improvement fitting them is more than odd

My bike the O2 is as from factory, not adjusted.

If you are saying you have not reset and rebuilt adaptions with the GS911 after fitting the injector and any other changes you have made then perhaps you should

 

[etotore]

[QUOTEIf you are saying you have not reset and rebuilt adaptions with the GS911 after fitting the injector and any other changes you have made then perhaps you should][/QUOTE]
Done that. Still with a so long trip should have tuned them in to the new injector? If the system is so smart, or I missing something.

Also I see on some injector pages that minimum opening time is given to 1mS or close to that, maybe we have a minimum Pulse programmed into the system?

Pulstar plugs comes from official European distributor.
Was in France for work so got it sent directly from them.
I got improvement, but not huge, for me injector was the big thing.
But would be interesting after Dyna-Boost is removed to go back to Brisk to see if it get so much worse.

Look at this page
http://injectordynamics.com/articles/low-pulse-tech/
That could explain my problem in very hot conditions too.
I think this points in an interesting direction.
Because of the non linear way of behaving, maybe some of the mapping is hard coded due to expected behavior in low end?
Or I'm I totally wrong?

Really appropriate your feedback, I'm just starting to learn.

Still, trying to find out why my bike is now 99% good.
Is runs great, no fumbe no stalls, just works.
Honestly number of days with this air temperatures that it was having trouble with, only has happened one time in the 5 years I have been living in Philippines.
Standing still, moving a few meters, then standing still again so no real air flow of any type around the bike. Heavy load too
Full touring rigged and two persons on it.

I will take the bike for a run and log values with gs911, specially in low end part of the register.

My bike the O2 is as from factory, not adjusted.

What I tried to say, no spoofers, not disconnected and no resistor adjustments done.

 

[WayneC]

OK, now you have provided all the information I understand where you are at, the Pulstars will be fine since they are from the official sources

The 124 injector rather than supply more fuel supplies fuel quicker, with better atomisation and the Pulstar improves combustion, hence the BMSE with the last firmware release you have is able to give as you say 99% so it handles your local conditions, leave it alone now and ride it

The other 1% is what the US/Canada recall is about and nothing you can change will fix those problems

The injector link you posted is not relevant that is all about other vehicles and you have already done what is needed, forget any thoughts re minimum pulse, dont dream up solutions to problems which dont exist

Arrange the wiring under the seat to enable the GS911 to sit under there while riding to do real time logging, we unwrapped the wiring to the diagnostics adaptor on the test bike here all the way back to the frame on the right hand side to separate the wiring to the socket then rewrapped it. That gives enough length to put the GS911 next to a smaller lithium battery or sit across the area at the top of the battery

The one question remaining though is who did the firmware upgrade, was that done before you bought the bike ?, can you find out who did it ?

 

[etotore]

Firmware was done before I got the bike.

Is it not stalls from standing still, at crossings /light that is the issue?.

From the link

In case that’s not clear enough, consider what happens if an engined is tuned with an idle pulse width of 1 millisecond, right at the peak of the knee. It’s possible that minor pulsations from the MAP or MAF sensor will not vary the pulse width enough to cause problems, but what happens if the air temp increases due to heat soak from idling in traffic, a blast of boost, or changes in atmospheric conditions?
Your ECU will respond by decreasing the pulse width a small amount to account for the change in air density, but this small reduction will result in a major reduction in fuel flow, leaning the engine enough to make it stall.

I have a question to the forum, maybe silly one if something like a silly question exists.
Do the people that have done MK4 termostat delete and decat have less stalls after this modifications on their bikes?

Arrange the wiring under the seat to enable the GS911 to sit under there while riding to do real time logging, we unwrapped the wiring to the diagnostics adapter on the test bike here all the way back to the frame on the right hand side to separate the wiring to the socket then re-wrapped it. That gives enough length to put the GS911 next to a smaller lithium battery or sit across the area at the top of the battery

Yeah I did do the same, works out well.

Have the LC-2 stuffed in the cavity for the rear light too, really neat.
Still it not connected as of now, maybe if someone can provide a link to connector for O2, so it easy to switch back to original setup sensor, without damage original harness I will give it a try
just for doing logging and try to learn something, for fun. Have already bought LC-2 so.

 

[WayneC]

Firmware was done before I got the bike.

OK understood

Is it not stalls from standing still, at crossings /light that is the issue?..

No the recall specifies stall when hot and clutch in, it is the same problem as suffered by the G650GS
Those who have the earlier firmware suffer further problems and they need to have the BMSE updated to the same version as your bike

From the link

Dont waste time with claims by one injector manufacturer claiming their injectors are better than all the rest, it is dreaming up solutions to problems you dont have

I have a question to the forum, maybe silly one if something like a silly question exists.
Do the people that have done MK4 termostat delete and decat have less stalls after this modifications on their bikes?

Thermostat delete is not relevant to the stalling issues

Have the LC-2 stuffed in the cavity for the rear light too, really neat.
Still it not connected as of now, maybe if someone can provide a link to connector for O2, so it easy to switch back to original setup sensor, without damage original harness I will give it a try just for doing logging and try to learn something, for fun. Have already bought LC-2 so.

You have a good running machine, you have logging via GS911 so unless you invest in the latest Bosch 02, the LC2 will not do much other than waste time

What you have done though shows the Terra and the last firmware version does handle your climate which should assist all the other owners, what would be good is to see some GS911 real time logging off the machine

 

[etotore]

Have the latest Bosch 02 sensor, got the full LC-2 kit.

From my side it was not a discussion on better brand type of injector, more how the injector function in the lower working area around idle speed...
How it the parameters there get affected by heat and other factors. In that way I think the article was interesting for my education of how things works.

In what way BMSE, react to inputs, my question assumption that to protect against stall there are programmed in a minimum pulse width, that probably is affected adjusted by temperature input from air intake. Fuel /air mix
O2 readings is ignored until rpm goes up. Is that far fetched, I know BMSE/ECU system is like a black box

I will post some logs in a few days..

 

[WayneC]

Have the latest Bosch 02 sensor, got the full LC-2 kit.

Does the kit you purchased have the Bosch LSU 4.2 or the Bosch LSU 4.9 O2 sensor ?

From my side it was not a discussion on better brand type of injector, more how the injector function in the lower working area around idle speed...
How it the parameters there get affected by heat and other factors. In that way I think the article was interesting for my education of how things works.

The article is more that manufacturer claiming their injector works better than anything else

In what way BMSE, react to inputs, my question assumption that to protect against stall there are programmed in a minimum pulse width, that probably is affected adjusted by temperature input from air intake. Fuel /air mix
O2 readings is ignored until rpm goes up. Is that far fetched, I know BMSE/ECU system is like a black box

Yes that is far fetched, if you looked at GS911 logs you will see the BMSE moves to closed loop at a relatively low engine temperature and 02 is active at idle

 

[Roger 04 RT]

+1

As Wayne said the BMSE runs in closed loop from idle to mid throttle, and has no minimum pulse width.

 

[etotore]

purchased have the Bosch LSU 4.2 or the Bosch LSU 4.9 O2 sensor ?

The 4.9 O2 Sensor, type.

 

[Roger 04 RT]

Either the LSU 4.2 or the LSU 4.9 work fine. You can set up the LC-2 to simulate a narrowband sensor and give yourself a programmable O2 sensor to drive the BMSE. If you shift lambda from 1.00 to 0.94 you will find your bike performs MUCH better. Once installed you can log AFR While you ride, a great setup.