TE/TC Marzocchi vs 4CS

[HS507]

My 4cs are closed chambered, i here its above 1200 to be revalved. I need to re-spring in future and was thinking of revalve job at that point. Would it be cheaper to just buy Marzocchi and switch and sell my 2016 fork to recoup môney? Is Mar better quality or is this not a wise move and just dump 1200-2500 in mine to convert to open chamber and revalve? Im not knowledgeable as many on this site and looking for input. Thanks guys

 

[LandofMotards]

A lot of suspension shops have figured the 4cs out, not a need to go open chamber but if you did those mods a pretty cheap at zipTy and whoever else does it.

 

[robertaccio]

I think that those 1k plus prices are at the highest side of the "conversion" mod prices
The believers in the conversion mod are as follows and most of these are well under 1k of course add at least 100 for different springs.
ProCircuit
ZipTy Racing (provides the comp "nuts" for some of the others)
Race Tech has the latest and greatest set up (at great cost in my opinion) with a dual comp valve stack HSCD and LSCD set up on their own comp base nuts and with their hi flow gold valves.
Earl Schuler's ESP one of the original developers of mod
Kreft
and some others
realize some others probably (my thoughts) cannot do this mod due to being official representatives for WP
Factory Connection for example , for sure I trust their set up if I left the 4CS intact.

 

[Big Timmy]

As Robert says above.

I had complete Racetech base valves, complete new Dual comp valve shim stacks, with a total re-valving done and the Racetech Gold valves installed in mine for under $575.00 by "ZR1 Suspension" in Tucson, AZ. They are open chamber now. "Don" freakin' nailed it right out of the gate.

That included all the Racetech parts, labor as well as the oil and new seals. The parts and oil were about $450.00 alone

Top adjusters still work as they came from the factory and I still have 3 full turns on the base adjusters to get it dialed even further. Which puts my top clickers back into the middle of their range. I have left the base valves at 1 1/2 turns and have only had to take a few clicks on the top adjusters to get them perfect.

Anyone who is charging you more than that is ripping you off. I got to stand right there and watch him go through the whole process and he explained everything he was doing and showed me how and why the stock set up sucked and the difference in flow with the new parts before reassembly.

They work great now for me. Others have different ideas I'm sure. For what I do they are great. It was the first modification I should have ever done. But I waited until the Suspension Companies had the parts resources available so there was no guess work.

I had already installed .48 KG springs at the time of purchase. "Don" pulled one spring preload shim out, to lesson the preload a bit and I have a set of .50 KG springs but I'll probably never need to install them. I weigh about 250lbs. in all my gear.

 

[HS507]

Thanks alot guys!!

 

[Norman Foley]

Your '16 4CS forks are the best ones yet, so don't get oversold on you mods!

 

[racemx904]

everyone I've talked to said the 16' 4cs is much better....

I had FC do mine and it went from unrideable to amazing for $600.... which was seals, bushings, base valve and revalve....

There is no way I personally would spend $1200 on a revalve, I'd sell and go buy a Yamaha....

 

[bowser]

The 16 forks work amazing for less than $50 in parts if you do yourself and don't need springs.

Big Timmy are your top clickers comp and rebound like original or both rebound?

 

[Big Timmy]

Bowser,

My top clickers work as original. Comp and rebound. We did not modify the base adjusters internally to convert to both of them being rebound.

They are working great for me and it didn't cost anywhere near $1000.00 or more.

Others have argued about that set up making one leg do all the work against the other.

I don't really care what they think. For one, they aren't riding my bikes. They aren't paying my bills or setting up my bikes for me either.

They also never quit messing with their own forks. So when they're doing that they aren't even riding their own bikes.

I'd think it is important to mention. That the brand new, latest "WP AER air forks", only has a single high pressure air chamber that acts as the spring and a separate outer chamber that runs at atmospheric pressure, on the one left fork leg. 100% of all the damping action for both fork legs takes place on the right leg of the pair of forks.

Isn't that something? Also seems rather convenient too.

So I guess those same people think those forks are working against one another also.

So, IM(not so expert)HO, they can take their "Expert" opinions to "WP Suspension" and complain to them about how wrong they are and see how far that gets them.

 

[racemx904]

You are completely right about what works for you who cares about everyone else.... It kills me many of these guys are constantly fooling with their bikes just for the sake of "thinkering"...

I don't have any issue with one fork doing the work as long as you can get them to work for you....

I wont be running the "Air" fork until I can be pretty sure what I personally saw with my own eyes isn't going to happen..... This was a KX450 heading down a choppy downhill that was pretty steep.... I was standing there to take pics.... midway down the 40 ft hill the guys forks literally bottomed out and over the bars he went into full lawndart yardsale.... I ran over to help him out, picked up his bike and the forks were mushy... I could bottom them out by just barely pushing.... So I guess he blew the seals or seal and basically "lost" his spring.... personally I am not near as concerned with loosing weight as I am just working correctly...

 

[JBoone]

The 16 forks work amazing for less than $50 in parts if you do yourself and don't need springs.

Big Timmy are your top clickers comp and rebound like original or both rebound?

Can you elaborate? I had my 2016 re sprung for me before I picked up the bike. No complaints on initial ride but not broken in yet. Cant start riding for another two weeks because of work.
I am sure these will take some time to break in, don't know if I will ever have them touched, but curious as to what the cheap alternative is.

 

[bikesparky]

Just reading the latest issue of the local dirt bike rag. ADB (Australian Dirt Bike). They did a 450 enduro shoot out. KTM, Husky, Beta, Yam, Suz, Sherco. KTM came out first due to it's all round usability and fine tuning of the model over the years. One thing all the testers agreed on was that the Husky would have gotten first if it had the same forks as the KTM. All agreed that the '16 4CS forks are the best so far but still worse than the OEM KTM which worked fine out of the box (all with the exeption of spring rate for lighter or heavier riders). Beta a nice 3rd with the 430 model.

Comment on the 4CS, initially soft and then unpredictable if ridden harder. If sticking to slow stuff they are acceptable, a bit faster and they are weird.
Beta forks on the other hand where also rated soft, like a trail bike, but despite this got a better rating as the damping was consistent.


I am aware that journalist are a bit "influenced" sometimes but here they are all KTM and Husky. Both KTM brands get a consistent great review with the exception of the 4CS forks.
In a way I can confirm this. My mate just got a second hand '11 model 530. I personally prefer the link instead if the PDS but the forks are as good as mine and I had to spend $800 bucks on it to get them to work properly.

Enough said...

 

[JBoone]

Seems like the 4CS has varied a bit in models. I had heard the 6 days had better ones, at least in 2015 onward.

Should be better than my 2005 EXC which was not set up for me so I guess I have a low bar! Hoping the 2016 sprung for my weight will do me fine in all seriousness, but I understand that they have had issues.

Will spend money getting then worked on later if I need to, but being a late adopter I hope that I can find somebody to sort them for a reasonable price at this point.

 

[bikesparky]

Seems like the 4CS has varied a bit in models. I had heard the 6 days had better ones, at least in 2015 onward.

Should be better than my 2005 EXC which was not set up for me so I guess I have a low bar! Hoping the 2016 sprung for my weight will do me fine in all seriousness, but I understand that they have had issues.

Will spend money getting then worked on later if I need to, but being a late adopter I hope that I can find somebody to sort them for a reasonable price at this point.

It's not a big drama to get them fixed. The issue is lack of oil flow and consequent oil starvation. All tuners agree on this.
Step one, remove the one way valve in both legs, which increases the flow and cures this.
Step two, fit the compression adjusters at the bottom.
Step three, valve and spring to suit rider (Needs to be done on most forks anyway)
Step four, RIDE! All good after this and then the forks work really good.

 

[bowser]

Can you elaborate? I had my 2016 re sprung for me before I picked up the bike. No complaints on initial ride but not broken in yet. Cant start riding for another two weeks because of work.
I am sure these will take some time to break in, don't know if I will ever have them touched, but curious as to what the cheap alternative is.

the 16 model forks saw some great improvements like larger port mid valves, smaller port base valves and an effective bottoming system which is very similar to the huck valve.

the 16 forks can feel great with nothing more than a bleed hole in the mid piston, heavier mid float spring and a custom shim stack.

my 14 forks had a heap of time and $$ thrown at them and in the end were working very nice with kreft mid pistons, race tech adjustable bases and g2r gold valves plush some other mods to the bottoming cone etc. they were really really nice, the 16 forks on a mates bike i done for him were about 95% as good as mine were but way cheaper and hence better value for money.

I have just change to using Dyva cone valves in my 4cs forks

 

[cjVOR]

You have one of the best tuners in Ohio. Cory Smith at ProTune in Wellston really knows how to tune the 4cs and he is very reasonably priced.

 

[HS507]

Ok, yes it sounds like i can leave 4cs intact and do a mod. I should get the list together of the things i will need and try and do it myself if its just changing out things fir modified parts, if its doable for a back yard race mechanically inclined person like me

 

[bikesparky]

Ok, yes it sounds like i can leave 4cs intact and do a mod. I should get the list together of the things i will need and try and do it myself if its just changing out things fir modified parts, if its doable for a back yard race mechanically inclined person like me

To do the conversion all you need is the bottom caps that put compression at the bottom and replace the original caps. Several outfits make them, racetech is one of them.
Next is open the fork and take that one way valve out. it is basically a valve on a spring similar to the float needle in a carby. In one leg it's up and in the other down.
The rest is all revalve and respring to suit. I don't know much about valving as I leave that to the experts, maybe someone else can help here.
All I know is that the shims have been adjusted a fair bit as the old shims came back in a bag and there a several.

A popular misconception is that one fork leg does compression and one rebound, this is NOT true! Both legs do compression and rebound!
Difference is that the adjustment for compression can only be done on one leg and rebound only on the other.
By doing this conversion BOTH compression and rebound can be dialed in on BOTH legs, removal of this one way valve also allows more oil to flow which helps this fork a lot.
Some people state that they like the adjusters at the top for playing with the clickers while riding. I call this BS as you only need to do this coz original fork is sh($ and inconsistent!
Once I had mine dialed in I have not touched a clicker since and all is fine and consistent.
The fork is so consistent now that I can feel if it "pumps up" during a hard ride and all I have to do is push the bleeders during a stop in to get back to normal.
I'm one click away on compression and 2 clicks on rebound from the suggested setup by Dave from suspension matters, ace!

 

[HS507]

So, you converted or just modified closed chamber Sparky?

 

[bikesparky]

So, you converted or just modified closed chamber Sparky?

It's still closed chamber. I talked to several tuners and there is no need to convert to open chamber.
The fork works the same except for the compression adjusters are at the bottom of the forks for both legs and both top adjusters do rebound.

I can't fault the forks now. I was new to off roading after years of road bikes. I struggled with this bike and I was convinced it was me. It pushed the front out, it deflected on rocks, the front felt different at the end of the ride compared to the start, in other words nothing that inspired confidence.
After this fix it's a totally different bike, I still panic from time to time if there is a rock being hit but nothing happens... the forks absorbs it and I ride on.
Since then my riding improved by 100%. I'm not joking, when I got this bike I was struggling on a sandy flat, now I'm the old joker (53) who rides through steep stone creek beds without putting a foot down.
I will never be fast but I try to do this mix of trial style riding and reasonable pace and I'm rapped I'm doing better than 20 year old open throttle roost throwers.