125-200cc I seized her again...

[johnnyboy]

I'm with you johnnyboy on that point. Looking at what everyones saying and my own learning I have obviously been too lean and too much of a newbie to even know what detonation was! As for the squish, i'd like to blame the piston. When I first learned of the squish band/clearance I measured my current setup out of curiosity - pretty sure I was around 0.8mm to 0.9mm. Bearing in mind I'm just comparing solder to a ruler with good eyesight. The solder is a hair over 1mm and looked obviously squished. Same test this time with Mitaka thick gasket and Mitaka piston showed the solder was JUST touched, leading me to believe im at 1mm squish. Again, not accurate testing but definitely bigger clearance than before. And I still don't know what it should be. I'm thinking if I put the slim gasket on too the clearance will be huge.

Looking at the box of the Wossner today I also noticed it was labeled Honda CR125...

Regarding the metering rod, don't even talk. I paid £75 customs on top of the price of the damn Lectron + shipping so I am really hesitant to buy any more nice things from the US. Before even putting anything together today I adjusted the rod a quarter turn richer, set my idle for 1.5 turns out and turned the PJ to 3 full turns out. Started up without choke as normal and idled reasonably close to 2100rpm. Blipping the throttle the engine/power sounds good and comes back down nicely. Obviously as you say though ill probably run into these problems when I get out on it.

Gonna look into my options on getting an MS3 - would I be right in thinking thats also known as the 3-1M? I have the 3-2M currently.

Sounds like you have a good enough head on your shoulders so you should be able to sort it out mate, Just remember to get the pj well open at around 4 turns, This is around how far out we had to run them as delivered, Spud a member on here and in the UK had his set so it 4 1/2 out and thats close to popping the thing out lol
Know what you mean on the imports - Got my last lot of bits direct from Kevin and other than a high postal charge every thing turned up on the door step with NO customs charges ****************************************! Its a lottery thats for sure, Walt has sent me the same parts many times and never once has Customs bill been any thing like the same, I once bought a new exhaust from the States for my KX450F and paid more in custom charges than I paid for the pipe so ended up paying near £100 more than I could of bought it in the UK ! Was not a happy camper I can tell ya .

 

[justintendo]

if you have to open the pj to 4-plus turns doesnt that mean you need a bigger rod? i.e. a 4-2 instead of a 3-2?

 

[shawbagga]

Harley I got a spare ms-3 rod I can post over to ya in a thick envelope if you want mate.

 

[Harley]

Harley I got a spare ms-3 rod I can post over to ya in a thick envelope if you want mate.

Thanks ill keep you in mind!

Ok so a new update guys:
Everything is together and I have been doing some laps of the street. Getting that funny sound very occasionally again and im reasonably sure its detonation like before... Sounds almost identical to my chain slapping the underside of my swing arm but with the footage from my gopro stuck down there i couldnt really determine. I did however put a strip of wood down there to "dampen" it to try and rule out chain slapping and im certain now it must be detonation

What are my options now? Is this a matter of going even richer on the rod or a squish clearance issue?

 

[troy deck]

have you double checked the timing ??????

 

[Harley]

I've never checked the timing on this bike, looking into how I go about that now.

EDIT: I've uploaded the clips from my GoPro of the bike's sound right now to YouTube here.

I definitely seem to still have a detonation issue and in a half guessed attempt to fix it I have tried going a further turn richer on the rod. This has possibly helped a little but now the bike sounds strange in general - I'm thinking its too rich.

The first clip is how the bike sounds, wondering if anyone can confirm thats just rich or something else?

The second clip is from earlier when it was making the detonation noises seemingly when its under load and low throttle.

 

[johnnyboy]

Cant make out anything from that Harley
My advice is to pop the original carb back on quickly and see if your noise goes away, That air filter sure aint gonna help any lean conditions I doubt either.

 

[johnnyboy]

Oh and if Shawbagga is offering you a ms3 I would have no hesitation in taking him up on the offer if not I will be doing him a deal for it.

 

[justintendo]

what happened to the airbox boot? thats why the bike is wanting waaay different jetting. wouldnt be surprised if the bike had more power as well.

 

[Harley]

My airbox boot rubber was old and falling apart, with it being a supermoto I just went for a cone.

The lectron has obviously been adjusted to suit this, not just popped it on lol... The detonation or running of the bike hasnt been affected by this.

Im now looking for a sort of verdict as to what my next move is. Ive heard about checking/adjusting the timing and/or adjusting the carb (MS3 rod).

I cant really "check" my timing as I have no strobe and I dont know how id do it with the flywheel being almost covered in the engine casing. What I can do is possibly adjust it, but would I want to advance or retard it? Or is this certainly a carb issue? Mixed opinion on that one!

 

[juicypips]

Personally i think timing may be at fault, call around your mates see if any know a good guy in a garage an get talking see if you can get him to check or teach you to do it. The stator plates can move altho it is unlikly.
The cone maynot be the best idea but the lectron is the best carb if your set up rich leave it.
I would check timing then squish as if you retard the timing you can run tighter squish most of the time anyway.

 

[juicypips]

I've never checked the timing on this bike, looking into how I go about that now.

EDIT: I've uploaded the clips from my GoPro of the bike's sound right now to YouTube here.

I definitely seem to still have a detonation issue and in a half guessed attempt to fix it I have tried going a further turn richer on the rod. This has possibly helped a little but now the bike sounds strange in general - I'm thinking its too rich.

The first clip is how the bike sounds, wondering if anyone can confirm thats just rich or something else?

The second clip is from earlier when it was making the detonation noises seemingly when its under load and low throttle.

Yup thats detonation have you changed fuel stations recently or using stale fuel?

 

[lankydoug]

My airbox boot rubber was old and falling apart, with it being a supermoto I just went for a cone.

The lectron has obviously been adjusted to suit this, not just popped it on lol... The detonation or running of the bike hasnt been affected by this.

Im now looking for a sort of verdict as to what my next move is. Ive heard about checking/adjusting the timing and/or adjusting the carb (MS3 rod).

I cant really "check" my timing as I have no strobe and I dont know how id do it with the flywheel being almost covered in the engine casing. What I can do is possibly adjust it, but would I want to advance or retard it? Or is this certainly a carb issue? Mixed opinion on that one!

You can retard the timing by pulling the flywheel and moving the stator plate the same direction as engine rotation. Most plates have a notch or mark and since you don't have a timing light i suggest moving it about the width of the line. I think at least for testing reasons you should try some 110 race fuel. My 09 WR250 would not run on 93 octane when it was tuned for max power, it has 205 psi cranking compression in bone stock form so iv'e been using vp110 since the second tank of fuel.

 

[justintendo]

there is nothing wrong using the cone on the road, just saying it will want much much more fuel from the carb than having the boot and airbox to draw thru. what others are running in a lectron in a 125 may not apply at all. be careful around crosswinds when riding, these can cause lean conditions blowing across the pod or even when the wind blows across the vent tube tips.
good posts above about your timing , might be a good idea just retarding it a tad as mentioned. timing certainly isnt as easy to set on newer bikes as older ones, but you can still figure it out. there should at least be a single mark to look for. probably a good idea to invest in a flywheel puller

 

[johnnyboy]

Still not going to be a timing thing I very much doubt but if it make you feel better by all means look into it.
YOU CAN NOT repeat CAN NOT look at what most people on here are setting their carbs at for use in the USA as they will NOT work here in the UK, I will repeat it till Im blue in the face, we need to run a richer setting. If you look at any jetting specs for certain bike in the USA they are not the same as ours ! Take a KTM 125 / 144 in the USA its jetted with around a 185 main jet here in the UK its fitted with a 210, A vast amount of difference.
Same thing when I tossed the Mikuni and went Keihin on my Huskys, Go to the jetting page to see what most were/are useing and its not going to work here, I used other peoples specs and was so lean on top it was scary.
The metering rod and that pod filter is the cause I have spent hour after hour fettling the Lectrons to work on 125 - 144 and the 165 and come up with the perfect settings and once again its nothing like what others on here are useing, Our fuel is nothing like American fuel no ifs no buts or maybes you gotta get a setup that works here in the UK
Look at shawbaggas post on his seized 165 he is in Australia where they too have crap fuel and he has just learnt the hard way you can NOT run a Lectron lean without paying the price especialy if your riding on the roads, Me I could ride mine from one end of the country to the other with no fear of it nipping up and as a added bonus I wouldnt even have to wipe a single spot of spooge off the exhaust when I arrived

 

[Motosportz]

Oh OK, the filter is a big deal and probably a huge part of your issue. IMHO it is best to buy a boot and put it back to stock. The cone filer, your fuel and your jetting as well as using this bike on the street is asking for failures. You need to really get this sorted before you toast another piston. The picture is becoming much more obvious and there are a lot more variables at play here.

 

[R-J van Hulst]

I had a problem with detonation on my 165 (high pitched crackling sound) and had to detune the set up (head modification) to make that go away

for sure 100% to blame on the fuel conditions here in Cambodia.

ignition is something that can be looked at yet it was always running fine before so it would surprise me if that one is wondered off.

I am not a big fan of the cone filter (to less filter surface and more restrictive)

assuming you run pump gas, you probably have to find it out for your self or from your fellow countryman's on these fuel settings.

my settings would give you an Idea but when compared to the bikes in America its far off and again far off to the settings in Australia.

same bike same set up different fuel.



Robert-Jan

 

[Harley]

You can retard the timing by pulling the flywheel and moving the stator plate the same direction as engine rotation. Most plates have a notch or mark and since you don't have a timing light i suggest moving it about the width of the line. I think at least for testing reasons you should try some 110 race fuel. My 09 WR250 would not run on 93 octane when it was tuned for max power, it has 205 psi cranking compression in bone stock form so iv'e been using vp110 since the second tank of fuel.

Stator plate had a mark and I put a mark on the case to remember where it was. The plate was already as far as it would go following the engine rotation so I tried going the other way. First of all by around 1mm, then by about 4mm and then almost all the way. Detonation still occurred at all adjustments, possibly slightly less so at 4mm but I'm not sure if that was just how I was riding on that test.

Race fuel is out of the question as this is only a run around supermoto...

NB: The detonation only appears and only ever appeared very briefly in the throttle range when I am building speed slowly under load.

Still not going to be a timing thing I very much doubt but if it make you feel better by all means look into it.
YOU CAN NOT repeat CAN NOT look at what most people on here are setting their carbs at for use in the USA as they will NOT work here in the UK, I will repeat it till Im blue in the face, we need to run a richer setting. If you look at any jetting specs for certain bike in the USA they are not the same as ours ! Take a KTM 125 / 144 in the USA its jetted with around a 185 main jet here in the UK its fitted with a 210, A vast amount of difference.
Same thing when I tossed the Mikuni and went Keihin on my Huskys, Go to the jetting page to see what most were/are useing and its not going to work here, I used other peoples specs and was so lean on top it was scary.
The metering rod and that pod filter is the cause I have spent hour after hour fettling the Lectrons to work on 125 - 144 and the 165 and come up with the perfect settings and once again its nothing like what others on here are useing, Our fuel is nothing like American fuel no ifs no buts or maybes you gotta get a setup that works here in the UK
Look at shawbaggas post on his seized 165 he is in Australia where they too have crap fuel and he has just learnt the hard way you can NOT run a Lectron lean without paying the price especialy if your riding on the roads, Me I could ride mine from one end of the country to the other with no fear of it nipping up and as a added bonus I wouldnt even have to wipe a single spot of spooge off the exhaust when I arrived

I have never been using any pointers as to what settings I should use. I understand the fuel is different and I respect your knowledge, I am simply looking to get as much info/opinions as possible on here as they seem to vary wildly.

Today I adjusted the timing out of interest to see if that helped or stopped the detonation. If that had of been it I would have saved myself some money and time - a few pointed out on here that in their mind detonation was a timing and squish issue so it was worth a try. Obviously that has not made any difference so I am now onto the metering rod.

Ill see if I can get hold of an MS3 from shawbagga and Ill report back with how it goes.

 

[johnnyboy]

Is the bike dropping back to idle correctly Harley ? And if your riding it and shut the throttle does it sound all ring a ding dingy as it could be you have a air leak to go with your troubles. One of the metering rods I have tried would bring on some bad detonation at a constant cruiseing speed around the 1/4 throttle mark but was fine up the top, not sure of its numbers though. I would still just pop the standard carb back on for a quick test as you have to start eliminating the problems one by one, If it stops detonating you know its carb related if not its something else

 

[Harley]

Seems to drop back down to idle well yeah. Not sure about any noise when I shut the throttle, nothing stands out as any different than before but Ill check this tomorrow. By an air leak would you be guessing at somewhere in the lower end?

Hard to put the original carb on as this bike came with a oil injection system and 28mm carb. Would mean changing manifold and throttle cable + adjusting the carb to run properly but I could do it if you really really recommend it!

Admittedly I did change a lot in one go. I was doing some upgrades and as the carb wasn't running so good with the new exhaust system I took the opportunity to upgrade to a Lectron (I had been looking to ditch the injection and small carb for a while anyway). I assumed from what I read about Motosportz setup carbs that the thing would be pretty close on delivery from the info I sent - obviously I see now that they do not come with a suitable rod for the UK.

Its all been one uphill learning curve since I got this bike, I got it for the project but damn I didn't see half this coming!