Hard Starting with Booster Plug

[Kenneth Webb]

Since installing my Booster Plug my Terra has not started almost instantly as it did originally. I have to crank it a bit while it catches, stops, catches, and eventually fires up. I don't think it did this right after I installed the Booster, but then I didn't ride it a lot until recently. I wonder if the two are related, or if something else is going on. Anyone else notice this?

I plan on getting the bike to the dealer once their magic machine comes in so they can remap the ECU and I can remove the plug.

 

[Xch]

Just unplug the Booster and reconnect the standard setup as it is all in place, should only take a couple of minutes.

Presuming that it would be the ecu requiring a fault check and remap.

 

[Kenneth Webb]

Just unplug the Booster and reconnect the standard setup as it is all in place, should only take a couple of minutes.

Presuming that it would be the ecu requiring a fault check and remap.

I'll try that. I wish my dealer would get his diagnostic machine in and up to speed soon.

 

[Kenneth Webb]

To cover the basics, I hooked up my battery charger to the bike and topped it off. It was below 80%, maybe because I've been doing mainly short trips, and in fact never charged it since bringing it home from the dealer. I just started it with a cold engine and it jumped to life immediately. Maybe it was just a low battery. I'll keep tabs on it for a while, but with a 400 watt alternator it should keep the battery charged pretty easily.

As an aside, I have a brand new Shorai in my TE630 and the box sez it comes 70% charged. It starts the bike perfectly, but then it has a higher amp rating than the Yuasa it replaced, and probably more than the BMW AGM battery in the Terra. Time for another Shorai?

 

[Canyonwild]

How do I know if I have the best or most up to date ECU mapping? My dealership has the magic moss. Does husky issue something akin to firmware revision numbers?

 

[Kenneth Webb]

They haven't yet sent any notices, at least as far as I know. From all the posts on the subject only the first batch of bikes had the lean stumble, and all since then have not. If you recently bought your bike and it doesn't stumble and die when taking off in first gear, or cough and spit back in second, you are OK. If it does, it needs to be MOSS'd.

 

[krussell]

They haven't yet sent any notices, at least as far as I know. From all the posts on the subject only the first batch of bikes had the lean stumble, and all since then have not. If you recently bought your bike and it doesn't stumble and die when taking off in first gear, or cough and spit back in second, you are OK. If it does, it needs to be MOSS'd.

I suspect that Husky's perspective on this is that the bike should be connected to MOSS at every service, not just when a problem is reported. This is the approach BMW uses, and the Husky service schedule calls out an item "control unit diagnosis" for every service. This sounds a lot like "connect to MOSS" to me.

When I take my K1600GTL in they hook it up every time. Sometimes there are updates that everyone gets, and sometimes there are updates that are only applied to remedy a customer reported issue, and sometimes there are adjustments that the computer by considering the data reported by the bike. On my K1600 there were no updates at the 600mi, 6k, or 12k services. I did get an update in response to a problem I reported with it reading certain usb devices consistently, and that update modified the FI map slightly as well. It's definitely a much more complicated bike, but I think the principles are similar.

It will be interesting to see what standard practice is for folks taking there bike in for maintenance.

 

[Kenneth Webb]

Let's make this thread just "Hard Starting". It has nothing at all to do with the Booster Plug as I reconnected without it and the problem is still there. Hold the starter button down and it cranks, stops, cranks, fires once or twice, and keeps on cranking. Something is definitely wrong. I also get a strong smell of gas too, like it's flooding. There must be a fueling or mapping problem. I'll be taking it to the dealer in Woodland Park next week to get the MOSS treatment, and maybe they can find the problem. The tech is new, too, so we'll see how sharp he is. Meanwhile, no Terra to ride.

 

[megatiker75]

I'll tell you my experience.
My TR650 bought this summer (and I recently produced) pesentava the problem of deadlock. This problem was very invasive and there are even dropped his fault. After several threats to the mother house I got the remapping of the ECU. The problem is only attenuated because cold was very present the same. Tired and demoralized I mounted the Booster plug that I had purchased earlier. Now the problem is completely solved. For a cold start I can say with certainty that the bike has improved a lot after I installed the plug. In confiurazione original had a very hard starting in the morning even though it was full summer. Now it starts very well.

Vi racconto la mia esperienza.
La mia TR650 comprata quest'estate (e credo di recente produzione) pesentava il problema di stallo. Questo problema era molto invasivo e ci sono persino caduto per colpa sua. Dopo varie minacce alla casa madre ho ottenuto la rimappatura della centralina. Il problema si è solo attenuato perchè a freddo era molto presente lo stesso. Stufo e demoralizzato ho montato il Booster plug che avevo acquistato in precedenza. Ora il problema è del tutto risolto. Per l'avviamento a freddo posso dire con certezza che la moto è migliorata molto dopo che ho montato la spina. In confiurazione originale faceva molta fatica a partire al mattino anche se era estate piena. Ora si avvia molto bene.

 

[Ogre_fl]

I installed a Wulka plug about 1000 miles ago.
I did notice that it tended to take just a tad longer of holding the starter button to get it to fire after the plug was installed, but nothing drastic.

Today though my Terra had a hell of a time starting.

It would turn over pretty much like always, then it would seem to fire/catch, but then the starter would just stop even though I was still pushing the button.
Took at least 4 stabs at the starter button until it finally ran.

Damn, this bike had been pretty fault free up to now.
I know the BMW batteries are crap and the BMW 650's are very sensitive to having enough juice, I am just hoping that is what’s up.

 

[AUS_TR650]

Today though my Terra had a hell of a time starting.
It would turn over pretty much like always, then it would seem to fire/catch, but then the starter would just stop even though I was still pushing the button.
Took at least 4 stabs at the starter button until it finally ran.

I also have this issue if I've let my bike sit for a week without running and don't have a Booster Plug installed. I'm not a fan of the starter lockout as you described but I guess they put it there to stop it overspeeding on startup or to prevent accident engagement whilst the engine is running.
Anyone noticed how small the starter cables are?

 

[Ogre_fl]

OK, I don’t know for sure what happened, but the bike has started fine several times since the other day.

I kind of suspect it may not be the battery after all.
I now think it is related to that the bike may not have been completely in the neutral position.
I think it may have had some kind of intermittent contact, shutting itself down just as it fired.

Mine acted a lot like the end of the first video on this thread, when the bike actually started.

http://www.cafehusky.com/threads/strada-struggling-to-start-or-sss-syndrome.34058/

Anyway, for now it’s firing up upon the first push of the starter again, same as usual.

If it happens again I will try monkeying with the side stand and clutch or perhaps just try taking it in/out of neutral and see if that makes a difference.

 

[danketchpel]

Let's make this thread just "Hard Starting". It has nothing at all to do with the Booster Plug as I reconnected without it and the problem is still there. Hold the starter button down and it cranks, stops, cranks, fires once or twice, and keeps on cranking. Something is definitely wrong. I also get a strong smell of gas too, like it's flooding.

I have exactly this problem during cold start. Hot start zero problems.

It really concerns me, several times I've wondered if it's going to start at all before I loose battery power. It has always "finally started" after messing with the throttle position or timing on the button. But damn, it's really a PITA and I'd like to find a permanent fix. NONE of my other FI bikes have a problem starting, none of them, and all are remapped.

If anybody has found a cure/fix/mod/whatever that corrects this please post it up.

It acts just like in this video, except sometimes it can take 6-8 tries, sometimes even more.

 

[hasenpfeffer]

I know that video. It's posted in a thread somewhere on cafehusky by the creator. Look hard and I thought the thread explained his experience.

 

[hasenpfeffer]

Found the thread.

http://www.cafehusky.com/threads/cold-start-issue.68741/

But it doesn't seem to really offer much, though I just skimmed over it.

 

[danketchpel]

I know that video. It's posted in a thread somewhere on cafehusky by the creator. Look hard and I thought the thread explained his experience.

Yes, I've read through his experience and solution. I think he's on the right track, you have to crack the throttle open just a hair. I've been doing that and it seems to help, but my lord it's hard to duplicate and sometimes doesn't seem to help.

I really believe it's far too rich for some reason and needs a tad more air coming through the idle control valve but I don't know how to mod it to create just the right amount, or lean the friggen mixture out enough. I've got some crazy lean settings at cranking speed in my PC5 now but it doesn't seem to help much. I'm not even positive the PC comes into play until the bike reaches a certain rpm, it's not clear from my research. I've spoken to Dynojet techs on this subject several times and nothing conclusive has come of it. Their basic advice is to remove the PC and see if it still does it. Well that's a royal PITA to start with and others have found similar problems with other types of A/F mod devices.

I "suspect" the issue is when it's bone stock they kick in a bunch of fuel at cold start to make up for the essentially very lean settings overall. Then if you mod the air filter or pipes it shifts the requirements enough the stock setting is wrong.

At least that's my theory. The stock setup still does it if you start the bike, then it either dies or you kill it about 2-3 minutes into the run cycle. Then when you try to restart it's the same deal. I think there's some funky biz in the OEM cold start mapping.

I'm desperate for a solution though, it really kills my confidence in the bike.

 

[Chuffa]

For what it's worth - I had a noticeable improvement after fitting a new battery. It started straight away every time.
I haven't done much riding lately except for short commuting & the battery is probably not at its peak anymore - now I get the occasional throttle required start.

 

[danketchpel]

For what it's worth - I had a noticeable improvement after fitting a new battery. It started straight away every time.
I haven't done much riding lately except for short commuting & the battery is probably not at its peak anymore - now I get the occasional throttle required start.

I've been considering just transplanting a known good battery from one of my other bikes just to see how it affects the cold start.

My current OEM battery does crank the engine very well and for some time so it doesn't seem "weak", but you never know.

One thing that makes me think about the battery is I've often noticed that it will start just after you let off the starter button, it's kinda weird.

I really have never had a bike that is so finicky about cold starting. Normally you just dump fuel in and it will start, hell the old Brit bikes you just tickled the Amal carbs till they flooded a bit and they'd start 1st or 2nd kick. How crude is that? But it works.

It's almost like there's something else amiss in the setup/system.

 

[dmw_az]

I wonder if there's not enough back pressure with those opened up mufflers? Did you ever have the problem with the oem cans? It might be worthwhile to put the oem cans back on to see if the problem goes away.

 

[Roger 04 RT]

Yes, I've read through his experience and solution. I think he's on the right track, you have to crack the throttle open just a hair. I've been doing that and it seems to help, but my lord it's hard to duplicate and sometimes doesn't seem to help.

I really believe it's far too rich for some reason and needs a tad more air coming through the idle control valve but I don't know how to mod it to create just the right amount, or lean the friggen mixture out enough. I've got some crazy lean settings at cranking speed in my PC5 now but it doesn't seem to help much. I'm not even positive the PC comes into play until the bike reaches a certain rpm, it's not clear from my research. I've spoken to Dynojet techs on this subject several times and nothing conclusive has come of it. Their basic advice is to remove the PC and see if it still does it. Well that's a royal PITA to start with and others have found similar problems with other types of A/F mod devices.

I "suspect" the issue is when it's bone stock they kick in a bunch of fuel at cold start to make up for the essentially very lean settings overall. Then if you mod the air filter or pipes it shifts the requirements enough the stock setting is wrong.

At least that's my theory. The stock setup still does it if you start the bike, then it either dies or you kill it about 2-3 minutes into the run cycle. Then when you try to restart it's the same deal. I think there's some funky biz in the OEM cold start mapping.

I'm desperate for a solution though, it really kills my confidence in the bike.

Hi Dan, I think I can help you through this. It may take a few back and forth trials. Knowing about how ECUs fuel in general we can probably work out what to do in your situation. I think it's likely that pulling the O2 connection to the ECU and modifying the fueling are the root cause but I'm obviously not certain about that.

Here is the usual cold start sequence, not every feature is in every ECU.

-Set start spark advance and dwell
-Cranking enrichment (lots of fuel for a couple cycles, up to 200% extra)
-Starting enrichment (engine temperature dependent 20-100% extra)
-After start enrichment (temp and time dependent 10-15% extra)
-Warmup enrichment (declining with temp and time 10-0% extra)

During the above period long term trims are applied.

One thing you could try is just unplug the injectors from the PCV and leave the rest installed.
Another thing is add 20% to the lowest RPMs see if that helps.