EFI O2 sensor removal why?

[Bart]

So I see a lot of people doing the power up kit (obvious), but I can't understand why the O2 sensor gets ditched and they need to use a JD tuner, or similar.

Isn't the whole point of the O2 sensor and EFI it corrects it self, so it has top performance every time no matter what temperature, weather or altitude?

It seems to me with a JD Tuner (or similar), you're just imitating a carb and the whole point of EFI in my eyes is we don't want to mes with it to get it running right.
Please enlighten me.

Regards, Bart

 

[AndrewS]

Regarding the O2 sensor, the ECU will run a very conservative fuel map while it is installed. Once you remove it and add the resistor plug to the harness, the ECU switches to a race map instead.

 

[Bart]

Okay but why not fit the race plug, and leave the O2 sensor?
Maps can be altered through PC/Laptop is it not (the TC449 proto certainly could).

Regards, Bart

 

[HUSKYnXJnWI]

The reason for tuning, beyond the stock map, with a tuner of any kind is because the "stock map": that which all the sensors attempt to achieve is not always "perfect". Think of it as "its working exactly as its told to" but what its "told to" is not perfect (in the real world/ with variences it did not count on like rider prefferances and mods that it can't or does not account for). Main thing you'll notice below is that the "O2" sensor is NOT a wide band and does not have the capabilities to adjust often assumed it does.

http://www.cafehusky.com/threads/jd-kit-no-pu.19589/#post-170584

The Lambda Sensor or "o2 sensor" is a narrow band 02 sensor. It does not do quite what you'd think: its function is to lean out the system whenever it and the ECU "thinks" it can. NO pratical function for what the bike is meant for. It makes the goal fuel ratio a poor one intended only to achieve EPA/fuel economy. These add on systems (JD/DJ) will not work right with the ECU in that mode and with the Lamda Sensor hooked up. Think of it like this: they'd be fighting with each other: since you can't achieve 2 A/F ratios at once.

having the system in Open loop lets you make adjustments with the Piggyback units- and puts you in more direct controle when making I/beat adjustments. Without goin into PU mode the 02sensor is like an annoying backseat driver that keeps putting in its 2 cents/ not knowing where we are even headed or that there's a big obstacle in 5.4.3.2.1!!! PU Mode is a more stable system that still uses Temp, Alt, air density.... as factors. I have ridden below 30' F at sea level and 95' F in the Mountains. Bike ran the same- no lambda/o2 since day 3.

http://www.cafehusky.com/threads/sel-1-sel2.19267/#post-168063
There is the "stock mode/epa dot map" with landa sensor hooked up- in this mode your landa (a narrow band o2) works with the ECU and tries to trim fuel- in this mode you will run lean and will have hesitation and other "performance problems" YOU CANNOT GO INTO SEL1 OR SEL2 FORM THE "MODE".
Then there is "Power Up/ Race Mode"- which is sel1- this is with the PU Plug in place of the Lambda/O2 sensor. This mode is allows you to switch to sel2 with the "map switch". The difference between sel1 and sel2 are in the ignition-not fuleing. SO any symptoms you identify with may seem related to fueling are only conicidence or due to the ignition map difference. I have the switch and never use sel 2.
Put the bike and PU mode and judge the fueling from sel 1- if it appears to need tuning- hooking up to IBEAT and sorting it out can help a great deal. Having Ibeat is very conveinient if you don't have a dealer nearby. Ibeat tuning is limited to 3 parts or sections of the map- not as complex or accurate as the JD or PCV- but you can get it pretty close in many cases where you may not feel it necessary to tune further- Depends on the bike, how sucessfull you are with Ibeat, and what your expectations/needs are.

 

[HUSKYnXJnWI]

Okay but why not fit the race plug, and leave the O2 sensor?
Maps can be altered through PC/Laptop is it not (the TC449 proto certainly could).

Regards, Bart

My discussion is completely about "legacy" models. The 449/511 uses a different system altogether. None was specified in the thread: Mikuni versus Keihin... However, in both the O2 is a narrow band sensor and does not do what you think it does. In Mikuni systems we can modify the maps with Ibeat- with Keihin/Husky there is no known way to adjust the stock map in that way- without a Piggyback system. Yes some japaneeze company's use Keihin and have adjusters sold by the Manufacturer- husky does not- so they use a Jd, or PCV, and appaently another is available now.

 

[McKay]

So now Im confused, Im on a TE449 with a JD and the sensor still hooked up. I was under the impression that it was bypassed by the JD, is this not the case and its suggested I take the sensor out of the loop?

 

[Bart]

Okay I'm understanding it a bit more.
So wouldn't it be possible to upgrade the O2 sensor/ system so you can put different maps on it using a OBD, and don't need an JD tuner or PCV or the like. I want the bike to be bare as possible with all the electronic controls it's just to much to go wrong.

What is the main benefit to a carb (I can't see any).

Regards, Bart

 

[AndrewS]

Okay but why not fit the race plug, and leave the O2 sensor?
Maps can be altered through PC/Laptop is it not (the TC449 proto certainly could).

Regards, Bart

If I understand your question, you couldn't do both since the plug goes into the same harness that the O2 sensor goes in.

 

[HUSKYnXJnWI]

So now Im confused, Im on a TE449 with a JD and the sensor still hooked up. I was under the impression that it was bypassed by the JD, is this not the case and its suggested I take the sensor out of the loop?

Don't let me confuse you, I was speaking about Mikuni systems (legacy bikes, and a few xlite models) because I didn't know the topic was about the 449/511 till ti was later mentioned (I assumed, based on my personall default) I can DELETE my POSTS if that would be Clearer:
..... I have not even seen a 449/511 in person at this point. I can only speak in generalities of efi in regards to the Keihin/Husky setup. Many differences exist in regards to tuning them and PowerUp processes. Look to guys like JD, Motosportz(Kelly) and Sam511 and other's who are familiar with that system.

Okay I'm understanding it a bit more.
So wouldn't it be possible to upgrade the O2 sensor/ system so you can put different maps on it using a OBD, and don't need an JD tuner or PCV or the like. I want the bike to be bare as possible with all the electronic controls it's just to much to go wrong.

What is the main benefit to a carb (I can't see any).

Regards, Bart

Do you own a specific model/ and have questions about a specific model? Or are you looking to simply learn/ trasition to efi models in general?

I am with you on doubting EfI benifits versus Carbs: I liked my FCR's ALOT and was familiar and comfortable. Many of us took the leep of faith, and some regret it and some don't. Certainly there is adapation and learing process mixxed with a little luck good and bad from reports. EFI- Does adjust for conditions on the grand scale- Temps and Altitude and such... But possibly not to perfection as in totaly 100% accuracy.
But generally, in my experience: I have ridden high and low altitudes in cold and hot temps and my bike performs the same- starts everytime- the same. Some minor adjustments to the Air Bypass Screw (like a Pilot fuel/air screw) may be necesary from time to time in different conditions. Other than that- its stable. However, changes in exhaust effect the system greatly effect the state of tune and adjustments need to be made with whatever tuning application you use. To make a change with mine- I plug into Ibeat click click tap and I just "rejetted" in less than 30 seconds (no gasoline on my floor or wrestling with carb boots). But there's problems such as Pumps, coolant temp sensors, injectors, battery dependant systems and such- but some of us have not had an issue in 3 seasons with proper preparation. Carbs need rejetting and maintenence too. So yea, there's good and bad...

 

[OlderHuskyRider]

. EFI- Does adjust for conditions on the grand scale- Temps and Altitude and such... But possibly not to perfection as in totaly 100% accuracy.
But generally, in my experience: I have ridden high and low altitudes in cold and hot temps and my bike performs the same- starts everytime- the same. Some minor adjustments to the Air Bypass Screw (like a Pilot fuel/air screw) may be necesary from time to time in different conditions.

There's a guy on another post that said his bike does NOT adjust for temperature, that he has to JDadjust it when temps get into the 90s. I agree with him, I do not think there is any way that the EFI systems we have on these bikes can adjust the mix based on air temperature.

I myself believe that there is no way for the bikes to adjust for altitude either.

 

[HUSKYnXJnWI]

I'M AN entirely different guy witn another opinion based on my own understanding and experience which I remarked upon. AND I said it does adjust,

EFI- Does adjust for conditions on the grand scale- Temps and Altitude and such... But possibly not to perfection as in totaly 100% accuracy.
But generally, in my experience: I have ridden high and low altitudes in cold and hot temps and my bike performs the same- starts everytime- the same. Some minor adjustments to the Air Bypass Screw (like a Pilot fuel/air screw) may be necesary from time to time in different conditions. Other than that- its stable. However, changes in exhaust effect the system greatly effect the state of tune and adjustments need to be made with whatever tuning application you use. To make a change with mine- I plug into Ibeat click click tap and I just "rejetted" in less than 30 seconds (no gasoline on my floor or wrestling with carb boots). But there's problems such as Pumps, coolant temp sensors, injectors, battery dependant systems and such- but some of us have not had an issue in 3 seasons with proper preparation. Carbs need rejetting and maintenence too. So yea, there's good and bad...

And that's do to the MAQS, and not just because it didn't fail yet doesn't mean its not working. If you look that up you'll see that the description of that that does is what you said the EFI bikes don't do- and you own one?

I have ridden carbed bikes and with carbed bikes in HIGH/LOW/HOT/Cold and - the efi is certainly running better with the variation like that than carbed bikes- if they didn't adjust you'd be waiting for it to be 70' f with a 20% chance to rain at 1000ft in order to ride your EFI bike because That's the only time it would start and run any good because that happend to be the conditions they calibrated everything at the factory and efi cannot adjust itself. (sorry but I am just trying to help)