• Hi everyone,

    As you all know, Coffee (Dean) passed away a couple of years ago. I am Dean's ex-wife's husband and happen to have spent my career in tech. Over the years, I occasionally helped Dean with various tech issues.

    When he passed, I worked with his kids to gather the necessary credentials to keep this site running. Since then (and for however long they worked with Coffee), Woodschick and Dirtdame have been maintaining the site and covering the costs. Without their hard work and financial support, CafeHusky would have been lost.

    Over the past couple of weeks, I’ve been working to migrate the site to a free cloud compute instance so that Woodschick and Dirtdame no longer have to fund it. At the same time, I’ve updated the site to a current version of XenForo (the discussion software it runs on). The previous version was outdated and no longer supported.

    Unfortunately, the new software version doesn’t support importing the old site’s styles, so for now, you’ll see the XenForo default style. This may change over time.

    Coffee didn’t document the work he did on the site, so I’ve been digging through the old setup to understand how everything was running. There may still be things I’ve missed. One known issue is that email functionality is not yet working on the new site, but I hope to resolve this over time.

    Thanks for your patience and support!

ECU elimination

Baddrapp

Baddrapp

Husqvarna
AA Class
I have done a little research. I have found the DS650 is the same as the single BMW F650. So if that is the case, ours is the same as the F650 but with performance parts; high compression piston, performance cam, etc.
The DS uses the twin spark plug head with four valves.

The point being the DS650 used carbs and not fuel injection. There are several manufacturers making stroker kits, carb manifolds, cams, crankshaft mods, just about everything. MSD makes a really nice spark control box with better coils and the box has ignition timing via dip switches.

The DS650 wiring harnesses are readilly available. My thinking is if the ecu become such a big problem, buy a used harnes as a starting point and eliminate all our electronics. Go with the msd ignition, lectron carbs, and when its time for a rebuild, go bigger.
 
I don't know if it is any difference, but the DS650 (carb) was the same engine as PRE-2000 BMW F650 (carb); and the TR650 (EFI) came from the G650 GS (EFI), which came from F650 GS (EFI conversion) which were EFI systems. So the DS650 engine is 3 generations behind the TR650. IT IS NOT GOING TO BE A PLUG AND PLAY CONVERSION TO TR650!

It gets confusing after 2000, and there is many changes trying to make EFI work on a single cylinder made for carbs. The TR650 finally did it but it was a complete redesign and the top end racing package was the key to do it (or one way anyway, the best so far.) But I personally do not like in between efi conversion models since they were always changing, and never designed right up front (until TR650).

But DS650's were dragster tested in a supportive community, so that is where you would find all available racing technology. But you are going to have to BRIDGE it to your model: one large step over the last 13 years engine technology to yours. The DS650 went to 2007 I think but is still the king of the hill in big singles in the ATV (but starting to die out after 8 years - they are breaking all the engines racing, lol.)

Here an active link below to some of the gurus, who raced back then including the World Champion DS650 dragster champion. I'm sure they would love to find out about the TR650 in an exchange of knowledge. They MAY be your key you are looking for! As well, they would probably love to start using TR650 engines in their racing ATV's. It sounds like a match made in heaven that everyone will prosper, until the engines run out.

Note: "Wayne", a member here is probably one of the biggest experts in the world on BMW F/G650 efi engines that yours came from: so that would be another bridge in making the impossible happen :D

http://ds650.org/community/
 
Most likely wont fit.

Take a good look at the DS intake/carb.
Its traditional in line and takes up LOTS of space front to back.
Take a look at the TR's down draft EFI that is PACKED in the space.
 
It seems nothing is plug in play for our bikes. Our engines are still a rotax design. It will be interesting to see if the internals are rotax dimensions. If they are it opens up alot of part sources. Plus parts that have been proven in racing.

I feel our bikes fuel injection is screwed up from trying to get the bikes smoged approved. BMW missed the boat by using an ecu designed by MM. It seems there is absolutely no support from the vendor.
 
The Terra/Strada engine is a BMW design used in the G Series BM based on the BMW licensing of the original Rotax engine. The Terra is the much rumoured and never released updated G650X with Husqvarna bodywork and frame, for the first time since the release of the original Rotax the crankshaft is different, no one really knows what the differences are but it would have to be lighter and stronger for the 10.000 RPM operation. As we all know the conrod/piston and head are different to the BMW G Series as well

All the electronics are also BMW design with the dash coming from the 600/650 scooters, ABS as per other BMW models and the Magnetti Marelli BMS-E coming from the 600/650 scooters and G650GS BMs.

The move to the Magnetti Marelli was a large project at BMW reducing their reliance on Bosch ECU's for the bike models. Bosch does not directly support the Bosch ECU's used in any of the BMW models as all firmware is BMW and Bosch have no capability to support it just as Magnetti Marelli dont support the BMS-E in either the BMW models or Terra/Strada/Nuda

It is clear than the Husqvarna engineers had no access to the firmware in any of the electronics and all of those parts come to them from BMW preprogrammed hence the higher pricing and supply problems

There is also a lot of confusion re the firmware on the old BMW F Series, it was only some 2001 firmware releases with problems and after that the firmware was stable but the situation was many bikes were not updated in the field and with the F Models there was a choice of 91 or 95 RON fuel plus 2 different injector firmware versions and people did not know/check which firmware they had so many people went round in circles trying to work it all out including some dealers. This confusion is similar to what has happened with the Terra/Strada, the last firmware version is what people need to ensure they have in the Terra/Strada, it is good stable firmware but as with all these things there would be room for improvement.
 
i'm with you all the way. I was just clarifying the history a little to save any steps possible. It's something that needs to be done, and that is a good methodology.

Your electric system has a lot more capability than the DS650, so look for mismatches there. All 4 top ends are different: TR650, DS650 (or F650 Funduro), F650 GS, and G650 GS. The electrics of DS650 is definitely different from the rest (weaker capacity); and then small tweaks I'm sure between the other 3.

If WayneC stops by (last poster on interchangebility thread at top of page), he would know all the BMW configs to date. I have studied the F650 and DS650 engine differences, and there are only minor gearing differences and one carb vs. 2 vacuum carbs. I was looking at a single Del Orto conversion for about $350 for my F650, maybe, with the DS650 2 in 1 intake manifolds; but your engine is completely different.

These guys below are expensive race builders for the F650 GS to CARB! They are a little snotty (they only talk German I think), and I don't know the difference between F650 GS and G650 GS; but they have done at least the F650 GS race bikes and they do not fool with efi, or they did not used to anyway. They are very accomplished racers who are very precision ($$$$) oriented.

http://www.team-pami.com/cms/index.php
 
rride said:
i

These guys below are expensive race builders for the F650 GS to CARB! They are a little snotty (they only talk German I think), and I don't know the difference between F650 GS and G650 GS; but they have done at least the F650 GS race bikes and they do not fool with efi, or they did not used to anyway. They are very accomplished racers who are very precision ($$$$) oriented.

http://www.team-pami.com/cms/index.php
Click to expand...


Team Pami looks very much like a "has-been", their website pretty much covers the 1.period of the F650 Funduro from '94 to 2000 (which seems to be the last date any of the text sections of that site were updated).
Which was the carb-period anyway, nothing new there. There's little-to-nothing on that site (at least in the German section) that relates to the later engines, twin-sparks and/ or G650 series in particular.
Nor anything at all re: ECU's/ electronics etc etc
It's pretty doubtful that any of their parts for the early version single-sparkers is directly transferable to the G-series.
In short, Team-Pami looks to have died long ago.
 
I can't remember who makes the ECU on our bikes. It's some Italian name that starts with an "M" like Marreti or Marconi or something like that. I found it one time and went to their website. They sell a lot of different ECUs for automotive and motorcycle applications. They had one for motorcycles that looked like it might work well with our TRs. It wasn't for highway use but I'm sure that's because it isn't optimized for emissions controls. I'm sure it would work just fine. If someone can come up with that manufacturer name (I looked quickly but didn't find it and cannot remember how I found it last time, and I'm working so can't spare the time today) their website wasn't hard to find. I think that'd be our best bet for going an alternate route. The ECU shouldn't matter as long as it's fast enough and has enough memory to hold the code and the tables. The rest is just mapping sensors and actuators to inputs and outputs and there just aren't that many on a motorcycle. We have great throttle bodies and other parts, HMW just dropped the ball on the ECU. Heck, there's no reason an Arduino wouldn't get the bike running but I don't think it'd have the speed or memory to really get the job done properly. Someone really clever could come up with a way to use a mass airflow sensor and do it right!

I also found a downdraft motorcycle carburetor while web surfing one day. That might be adaptable to our oddly designed intake manifolds.
 
No, Pami DOES have (or did have) conversions to F650 GS AND G650 GS (SEE link BELOW). They HAVE to convert to carb. Only OEM or full blown (4 cylinder) dragsters have race kits with efi, but carbs are always easier. This IS the key but did not think of it before. HOWEVER, there was/is not enough demand to continue to offer the EFI to carb (Mikuni I think) conversion kits. BUT they have done it done it on race bike conversions! Can anyone speak German? Or maybe they are hungry enough to speak in English now.

Of course Pami converted to DS650 which was easier and had demand. But Pami is the ONLY one, except a lone wolf who folded at start up, that has done it and offered a EFI to carb as a package. These are highly trained experts that offer race worthy products and have engineering and expert machining support.

OMWracing is a world champion who has a bunch of large cylinders that need a total engine rebuild to accompany. They charge high prices but not from expertise. Once you learn their famous cam is a Webb DS650 High torque, short duration cam, the rest of their stuff will just eat your engine up like dragsters will, who they cater to. It's really a small community in the world. There's another German company who might do efi conversions to carb, but I can't remember their name and they only deal with wholesalers.

OMWracing (the world champion ATV Bombardier racer, Eric) frequents the race site link I gave before for DS650, but you are not going to get anything but expensive parts for DS650 only. They were looking at efi, but not efi to carb and they are stuck in carbs to carbs (it's hard to do efi kits without engineering.) It's not easy, and although (a Kentuckian) world atv drag racing champion, Pami has more technical expertise (AND engineering support) at efi to carbs since they have done it before (there was no demand for it however.) In reality OMWracing is the one STUCK in Funduro engine carbs (don't let the years of engines fool you, BMW f650 funduro 1992-2000 = ds650 2000-2007/8 engine), and Pami is just doing what demand dictates, BUT CAN DO AND HAVE DONE what you are looking for. I should have thought of that sooner, but i do not have time to talk with snotty Germans. But if you speak German, it might be a different story.

As for the Lectrons, like dragsters require, they are ON/OFF carbs and have NO throttle range to speak of. If this is what you want, and altitude intolerant too I think, then it is a good one.

http://www.team-pami.com/cms/?q=en/catalog

Catalog

 
I just emailed MM explaining the stumble off idle. I asked if they have a company/vendor that can tune our ECU. Lets see what they come back with for an answer.
 
glitch_oz said:
Yes, native German speaker here...and I certainly looked at that pricelist for parts and services before commenting above.
That site is more than skinny on any current (beyond year 2000) or concrete info.
A couple of lines of text from 15 years ago isn't exactly a promising lead to a multi-$1000 pie-in-the-sky-gamble.
Click to expand...


True, but knowing they HAVE done it before, the gamble is a telephone conversation (or email tag-game), not multiple-$1000. Then they could verify the only lead with successful historical evidence. Since you speak German, the information leads would be the most valuable reward, and it would be relatively free. They make money machining parts, and the efi/carb conversion is just the right combination electrical/components configured correctly. Of course, after talking with a Ron Woods, there may be lots of tweaks to the Mikuni they used to make it go. Instructions from the past Mikuni/efi conversion would probably tell a great deal of the configuration minus details, if available. It was just a thought.
 
Baddrapp said:
I just emailed MM explaining the stumble off idle. I asked if they have a company/vendor that can tune our ECU. Lets see what they come back with for an answer.
Click to expand...

It is pointless contacting Magnetti Marelli, they make the hardware only, the OEM does the firmware and in this case it was BMW, others have asked MM previously and I have seen the email responses explaining the fact they have no ability to look at the firmware. MM will also not release any generic hardware info, I have already asked for hardware and development manuals but no joy

With modern ECU's there can be a number of generic inputs/outputs which are then used for different purposes and it is up to the OEM Engineer which is used for each. A comparison of the wiring diagrams for the BM Scooters, Sertao and the Terra shows differences in the way the engineers utilised the generic I/O between the models

If any attempt was made to convert back to a carb then the dash would also need to be replaced as the info to it is via CAN BUS from the BMS-E as well as the ABS where ABS is fitted so it is in all not a simple process
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top