Are you going to get the new 449cc 2011

[petem]

Most batteries have some charge left ... Why wouldn't the charge from the alternator run the bike correctly after it was started in most cases? Even if the efi blocked the gas 100%, U could remove the plug, add some gas, and get the bike to run for ~3 seconds and this would start the charging system on the bike ...

Sometimes it would work, but not always as it depends on why it isn't starting on the e-start in the first place. For example a catastrophic battery failure can leave the battery short circuit (or you could have a wiring short), which would pull the alternator output down possibly to the point where the EFI can't cope. Similarly a *very* flat battery might do that depending on how the system's wired and how good the alternator/regulator is. A break in the battery wiring or an open circuit cell in the battery might not prevent you starting the bike, but could result in the EFI being damaged afterwards at which point it's curtains.

Of course, if you have a problem like the battery's gone flat while you were riding then we should ask why - most likely it's because there's a fault in the charging circuit so we can't assume that there is any charge from the alternator to keep it running even if you get it started. And if there's something else wrong with the engine such as dead EFI, seized piston etc, etc, then kicking it isn't going to help (apart from possibly making you feel better!).

As I already said, sure there are times when you would be able to kick start it when the e-start didn't work so I can see why some people want one and I have no objection to that, I was just pointing out that it's by no means a sure thing and e-start is so reliable nowadays that I'm happy not to have a kicker. I guess we all have to decide how far we want to go in terms of making sure we can get the bike going - you'd ideally need a complete spare bike right behind so that no matter what fails you could always replace it (and in my case probably a spare rider too ).

 

[petem]

Like me, most people are skeptical about all the tech. One of the reasons BMW is sometimes ridiculed is because of all the tech and pragmatism. When people want a bike, they want raw and simple. Not high tech and uber fancy. Most people want to ride and wrench on their bike. They want a bike that is stripped to only necessities.

I think FI, and new suspension designs (like the prototype seen on the new KX 450) will be a hit someday. But right now old tech is just better.

I don't want tech for tech's sake, but equally I don't particularly want raw and simple either - if some tech can make the bike better I definitely *would* want it to be there! Of course there's a debate to be had about whether each bit of tech actually does that, but I certainly wouldn't reject a new bike just because it has the latest tech on it otherwise we'd never move forward. There is the issue about how reliable brand new tech is, but at least the engine has been around a while so that's not version 1.0. I don't know how good the new bike will turn out to be, but I'll judge it on what it's like to ride rather than what tech it has on board.

I don't know whether it's generally "most people" or not, but I definitely much prefer riding to working on the bike and I'd be blissfully happy if all I needed to do was put fuel in it once in a while! That's also true for all the people I ride with. Of course I do the routine maintenance I need to do to keep the bike running well but for anything really major it will be going back to the dealer as I don't have the skills to rebuild the engine for example and in any case I'd rather spend my time on other things.

Still, I respect your views and I think it works out well for those of us who do want to give the new bike a try, as there will be fewer people in the line!

 

[ray_ray]

Yep...lotta good points and examples + unknowns :00

And then there is the case where I lost the bolt out of my battery cable during a race and let the engine die and I had to use the kicker to salvage my last place finish

 

[petem]

And then there is the case where I lost the bolt out of my battery cable during a race and let the engine die and I had to use the kicker to salvage my last place finish

A concrete example where I can 100% guarantee it could never happen to me ... I don't race.

Could happen on the trail, though there isn't a bolt at the battery itself as that's a quick-release plug - could happen at the other end of the cable I guess. Either way I'd have plenty of time to get it reconnected and use the e-start.

So (and this is a genuine question) how do you (and others) rate the importance of a kick start? For example, would you absolutely never buy a bike that only had e-start, no matter how good it was in other ways (even if it was winning every race when in the hands of good riders)? Or is a kick start just something you'd really like to have but could live without if the rest of the bike was good enough?

Nothing wrong with either view as it's clearly a personal choice, but I'm curious because we seem to be heading towards more bikes appearing with e-start only. Do you think manufacturers have screwed up their market research and are going to find that they can't sell them (apart from to me)? I guess stranger things have been known...

 

[Motosportz]

If I was not such a husky head I would have a FE390 with no kick starter in my garage. It's something I can work around. I would carry a turntech in my pack as it weighs near nothing. The amazing EFI on that bike is very much worth it to me. If the EFI on the new husky is as good I'm all over it. the husky EFI works well as a electronic carb, the Berg EFI is a huge step up and does for bikes what it did for cars, perfect throttle response / control, excellent MPG, and flawless fuel metering. I LOVED the way that bike ran, better than any carbed bike I have ridden. It is the next big thing. Additionally the FE390 had a 3 position power switch which altered the EFI and ignition mapping and made a huge difference and was very useful. I ran it in the max power mode 80% of the time but a slick uphill or rack garden was so much EZer navigated in the softer maps. I look forward to real progress. I can hardly wait for this new bike. I think once ridden opinions will change.

 

[vespadaddy]

Please pardon me for commenting, as I am a dirt and Husky neophyte, but let me pose this question: why do people feel a magic button is so important for a 4 stroke, when it wasn't considered important for the previous decades of 2-strokes? I think it's because 2 stroke bikes have been really easy to start for decades, and the earlier variants of 4 stroke dirtbikes were well known to be difficult to start, especially hot.

In the grand scheme of things, I think 4 stroke dirt bikes are just now exiting their infancy, and as such, they are getting easier and easier to start. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a return of kick-only 4 stroke EFI dirtbikes in the future, especially for the dirt-only racebikes. I simply do not believe that an electric start system, with the heavy battery and starter motor could ever be made as lightweight as a kickstarter.

Arctic Cat was manufacturing batteryless EFI snowmobiles with no electric start in the late '90's. I expect motorcycle manufacturers will be capable of making easy-starting, kick only EFI 4 stroke bikes very soon.

Technology marches on. Don't be afraid to embrace it.

Remember when the first low flow toilets came out? They were almost always a 2-flush affair if you had business that required paperwork. I now have a 4 year old Toto brand toilet that's low flow and has never, ever failed to dispose the contents of the bowl in 1 flush (including instances with young children who use 1/2 roll of TP in one sitting).

 

[Motosportz]

Please pardon me for commenting, as I am a dirt and Husky neophyte, but let me pose this question: why do people feel a magic button is so important for a 4 stroke, when it wasn't considered important for the previous decades of 2-strokes? I think it's because 2 stroke bikes have been really easy to start for decades, and the earlier variants of 4 stroke dirtbikes were well known to be difficult to start, especially hot.

In the grand scheme of things, I think 4 stroke dirt bikes are just now exiting their infancy, and as such, they are getting easier and easier to start. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a return of kick-only 4 stroke EFI dirtbikes in the future, especially for the dirt-only racebikes. I simply do not believe that an electric start system, with the heavy battery and starter motor could ever be made as lightweight as a kickstarter.

Arctic Cat was manufacturing batteryless EFI snowmobiles with no electric start in the late '90's. I expect motorcycle manufacturers will be capable of making easy-starting, kick only EFI 4 stroke bikes very soon.

Technology marches on. Don't be afraid to embrace it.

Remember when the first low flow toilets came out? They were almost always a 2-flush affair if you had business that required paperwork. I now have a 4 year old Toto brand toilet that's low flow and has never, ever failed to dispose the contents of the bowl in 1 flush (including instances with young children who use 1/2 roll of TP in one sitting).

RMZ and CRF motocrossers are battery less EFI kick starters.

I like E-start on 4st for several reasons. They over heat quickly if not moving. So when you get stuck behind someone on a nasty hill or mess up and have to lift the bike around or over to a new rut etc you can shut it down, move the bike and stab the button and go. In gear dead engine race starts are EZer. Get a "pop and stall" and you can hit the button and never loose time (I do this on my TXC250 once in a while when I brain fart and stall it) I forked out $700 to add one to my 06 TC250/300 and it was well worth it IMHO. If you ride tight nasty stuff you start and stop a lot.

I had a 03 YZF250 with JD jetting and that thing was EZer to kick start than my WR250.

 

[petem]

I simply do not believe that an electric start system, with the heavy battery and starter motor could ever be made as lightweight as a kickstarter.

Heavy battery? I'd guess my lightweight battery probably doesn't weigh much more than the kickstart lever (<450 grams, just a bit less than the satnav I have clipped to the handlebars). I don't know what the starter motor weighs but it's possible to make that also act as a generator (so no separate alternator), so the extra weight to provide e-start could potentially be almost nothing if it's well designed. As you say, let's embrace progress!

I don't think the difference in weight between that and a kickstart was what most people were concerned about anyway - I think the issue was more about whether you want a kickstart as a backup to the e-start, not in place of it. Of course I could be wrong - perhaps we could have a quick show of hands for who'd prefer Husky to produce all their bikes in future with kickstart only?

To answer for myself, I don't mind if there's both kick and e-start, but not having an e-start is something that almost certainly *would* stop me buying a bike, and it's not just a fashion issue or idleness, it seems relevant even to racing. Just watch one of the MX GPs and see how many of the people who crash have serious trouble kicking their bikes back into life while the next half dozen riders pass them, and in some cases they never get it going and DNF (so the easy kick-starting isn't totally licked just yet). Those who have e-starts generally just thumb the button and off they go. If you stall or crash a few times while enduro racing it could be tiring if it takes several kicks each time to get it going. Also I've stalled in awkward places where there's no way I could have kicked the bike into life (e.g. half way up a steep climb, or briefly balanced where I couldn't reach the ground with my feet), but a press on the button got it going again without falling off or having to backtrack. Mind you, I've seen indoor trials riders do a kick start while balanced 30 feet up on a knife edge, but I don't have that kind of skill.

If you were right and every 4T always burst into life at the first kick then maybe there would be a resurgence of kick-only bikes, but I don't see any evidence of that happening and it still wouldn't have the advantages of an e-start for getting going in awkward situations and saving energy. In fact things seem to me to be going the other way (e.g. the new KTM 350 mx bike and our very own new Husky). Still, if Husky did decide to take the e-start off the new 450 and sell it with just a kickstart, after that glowing report on the FE390 I could probably be happy with one of those instead! (hmmm - I see my local dealer has the 'berg in stock...)

 

[petem]

I like E-start on 4st for several reasons. They over heat quickly if not moving. So when you get stuck behind someone on a nasty hill or mess up and have to lift the bike around or over to a new rut etc you can shut it down, move the bike and stab the button and go. In gear dead engine race starts are EZer. Get a "pop and stall" and you can hit the button and never loose time (I do this on my TXC250 once in a while when I brain fart and stall it) I forked out $700 to add one to my 06 TC250/300 and it was well worth it IMHO. If you ride tight nasty stuff you start and stop a lot.

Good points. And if you use one of the new lightweight batteries they only take about 5 minutes of running to get back to fully charged after a normal start, and will still start the bike even when very nearly flat so as well as saving a bunch of weight you can stop and start lots of times during a ride without worrying about a flat battery.

 

[jsleeper]

Even with my reservations about some of the tech (mostly from a price increase point of view) E start seems to be a welcome addition to most bikes...especially trail bikes. I took the battery out of my CRF250x for one ride, and quickly put it back in and left it in for the 4 years I owned it.

One of the best things about the WR125 is how easy and reliably it starts hot or cold...a no energy, no thought process.

On the other hand. Some of my family members have the big trail quads..450, 600, and 700ccs. Those things are very easy to start with the pull starter. Hardly any effort is needed. Not sure why the bikes seem to be more finicky.

From what I understand, if you choose e-start only and loose the kickstarter there is not much of a weight penalty, right?

JS

 

[ray_ray]

Remember when the first low flow toilets came out? They were almost always a 2-flush affair if you had business that required paperwork. I now have a 4 year old Toto brand toilet that's low flow and has never, ever failed to dispose the contents of the bowl in 1 flush (including instances with young children who use 1/2 roll of TP in one sitting).

Is this documented? lol ... Some here will only accept video as proof ...

PS -- You aren't a Toto salesperson are you?

 

[gestion01]

RMZ and CRF motocrossers are battery less EFI kick starters.

I like E-start on 4st for several reasons. They over heat quickly if not moving. So when you get stuck behind someone on a nasty hill or mess up and have to lift the bike around or over to a new rut etc you can shut it down, move the bike and stab the button and go. In gear dead engine race starts are EZer. Get a "pop and stall" and you can hit the button and never loose time (I do this on my TXC250 once in a while when I brain fart and stall it) I forked out $700 to add one to my 06 TC250/300 and it was well worth it IMHO. If you ride tight nasty stuff you start and stop a lot.

I had a 03 YZF250 with JD jetting and that thing was EZer to kick start than my WR250.

Auto clutch solves most of these issues in a 4t IMO. They should come stock with the bikes.

 

[Coffee]

Is this documented? lol ... Some here will only accept video as proof ...

PS -- You aren't a Toto salesperson are you?

Yes there was an issue with low flow toilets, it was a fiasco. I am quite sure more it is well documented somewhere. I doubt he works for Toto.

 

[Motosportz]

Auto clutch solves most of these issues in a 4t IMO. They should come stock with the bikes.

Actually it only solves the stalling issue. I had a autoclutch in my 04 TE450 and never wanted to give the e-starter up. You still need to shut it down on a hill behind people so it does not over heat. With E-start you can stab the button and go on nasty side hill trails where your waiting for someone instead of try to fish a kick starter out and try to kick it with the other foot off the ground (side hill). I see little depute that the majority of people like e-start. Heck hoards of people flocked tot he KTM 250/300 because of it and it's a 2 stroke.

 

[ray_ray]

Yes there was an issue with low flow toilets, it was a fiasco. I am quite sure more it is well documented somewhere. I doubt he works for Toto.

Apparently, I missed this fiasco ... Always been on the high flow side I guess ... Is it too late to invest heavily in this low flow company?

 

[tnttimber]

Auto clutches suck and if you cant deal with kickstarting a dirtbike then you need to take up a different hobby, try needle point.

 

[hipsterdufus]

no, to difficult to work on

 

[gestion01]

Actually it only solves the stalling issue. I had a autoclutch in my 04 TE450 and never wanted to give the e-starter up. You still need to shut it down on a hill behind people so it does not over heat. With E-start you can stab the button and go on nasty side hill trails where your waiting for someone instead of try to fish a kick starter out and try to kick it with the other foot off the ground (side hill). I see little depute that the majority of people like e-start. Heck hoards of people flocked tot he KTM 250/300 because of it and it's a 2 stroke.

For sure if you stop and go a lot e start is the best. Even so, if I had too choose, I rather have the auto clutch. It gets rid of the engine braking, the pop/stall and lets you concentrate on the rest of the bike instead of the clutch.

2t's are another story, I don't need neither on them. And that's to whole point in buying a 2t in IMO...a simple light bike. If only they rode like 4ts

 

[ghte]

Getting back to the 450. I think I will probably pass on it. I have been wavering between it and a 310. Frankly the new 450 does not grab me and it would be hard to get that feeling sorted. I think the bike looks pretty ordinary. The new 310 with improved bottom end looks the goods out of the box. I really believe this will be a winner for Husky. I can't wait to give one a burl.

 

[ioneater]

Getting back to the 450. I think I will probably pass on it. I have been wavering between it and a 310. Frankly the new 450 does not grab me and it would be hard to get that feeling sorted. I think the bike looks pretty ordinary. The new 310 with improved bottom end looks the goods out of the box. I really believe this will be a winner for Husky. I can't wait to give one a burl.

Yeah, yeah,

You KNOW you're going to have to try them BOTH if available It's inevitable. You just have to know how "horrible" the BMW engine is like the rest of us