50mm Zokes issues advice pls

[andy j]

Ok guys..
TE 310 2010 owned for 1 year.. from new.
Firstly i love this bike its awesome apart from one part i now need to get on to fixing...
I have a repetitive problem with these forks that im going to try and fix so need your help.
The forks leak oil..... alot.. and are so annoying its starting to take away the enjoyment of the bike. It does not stop me riding and is not like a split seal. but annoys me and i keep thinking of oil levels getting lower, Hopefully you guys can help me out..
Im not giving them to any more suspension tuners or my shop as the problem always comes back. I will solve the problem myself or with my cheque book.

I found this thread which also seems to highlight the issues i have.
http://www.cafehusky.com/forums/showthread.php?p=135940#post135940

Lets see if we can fix it..


The problem
It appears that the forks leak oil through the non sealing seals.. not leaking through damage.
Compressing the fork leaves a clean oil line around the lower fork tube.
It will occur in both sides randomly, not all the time,
I can solve the issue by releasing my wheel spindle bolt, bouncing & sliding the lower fork leg around on the spindle, and or sliding a small piece of film up the seal ( always comes out clean no grit) This is telling me that it is possibly an alignment issue. The front spindle . low fork legs have been real stiff on each other from day one... i have to prise the alloy apart near the bolts with a flat bladded screwedriver.
its weird i have not replaced the seals as the issue goes away and comes back randomly. It happen after a had a revalve & new seals before i even rode the bike.. and has been reoccuring since.. i think now is the time to do the seals though as part of the maintenance.

If i clamp the front of the bike onto trailer or tie it down in the van that compresses the suspension slighhtly when i arrive at the track the forks have leaked.. will clean them up and ride all day with no problems or further leaks.
I have checked that the fork tubes are equally in the same position through the top clamp.
When i took my bike to my local suspension guy for a revalve they leaked before i got them home. We realigned the spindle and all was fine for while, when they leaked again he had them back, stripped them and said the seals were fine.. again i used it and just get on with the problem when it arrises. I recently had the bike serviced at my dealer.
When i got it back the forks were leaking. The front wheel was removed to change tyres. I had to do the re alligining thing and then they were fine again for a couple of weeks (bike just sitting in garage) then load into van and they leak again.... I do not know why i have to go through all this reallignment hassle every time the wheel is removed..
Im begining to think the forks are poorly made and in my case not up for purpose... unless the re alignment is somehow masking a bigger issue??
No one i know has had this much problem with re alignment & tempermental forks.. lus im getting really annoyed with it being hard to get springs for these forks easily + it is not easy to change pre load as it has plastic spaces that need to be cut or made bigger..
Dis anyone ever find a product that can be used for making pre load spaces.. like UPVC plumbing pipe??
I am really pleased with everything else on the bike other than the forks.
The bike is imaculately looked after has 24hrs and 750 miles

What can i do.
I Cannot justify selling the bike and buying a newer model with the Kayaba forks. and why should I surely these forks should work shouldn't they?

I can buy a set of 2005 YZ 250F forks from ebay for £200 what other parts will i need to change? clamps ? Wheels? Im looking at these because i no issues with the YZ 250F forks on my previous bike ever..

I am, running 5wt oil could change this to a higher wt... might get a bonus of slower damping..
i have changed the fork springs so can dismantle to this stage..
Im thinking of getting 2 OME fork seals. Taking apart and re building carefully.. with oil recomended from you guys..
trying to solve the axel issue (anyone else had this issue)

I have looked at the video for single chamber fork seal replacement and whilst looks easy i may need some help from you guys... i have no tools so would have to buy a fork seal driver at £50 ouch !

Im jealous of you guys with all the decent Zokes.. it appears i got a bad deal with 2010 310 as it was the only bike to come with single chamber zokes even some later in year models have the twin chamber versions..

Any thoughts anyone..

 

[ray_ray]

Looks like you are well aware of the issue ... I have the dual chambers models and have to clean the seals from time to time to keep them from weeping ... then I pack grease in the dust cover and over the seal to help keep dirt out .... so far, 9,000K on my 08 TXC250 and I replaced one seal long ago ... it probably just needed cleaning but I was not so aware last yr ....

Changing forks seems a little extreme ... the oil Wt should not matter really ... maybe different seal types?

That axle issue maybe be a real issue ... Do your forks feel like they bind any when riding on smooth roads?

It sounds like a setup issue or a fault somewhere because you describe them leaking for no apparent reason such as dirt or mud which most of us experience ... And others have described much the same behavior you him ...

That other thread had some good ideas on the driver tool ... I replaced mine in such a way .... really just a piece of cake ... Just take you time and take some pics as you go for reference and posting here ;0 )

There might be something in this thread where DR made some pre-load spacers ...

http://www.cafehusky.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15017

 

[MXRider]

I have come to the realization that the low end Marzocchi forks that come on our bikes are junk. Poor QC, poor tolerances, prone to leaking, crap valving, very poor thread job on lower fork mounts, etc. Now if you buy a set of their high end forks with the DLC coating and billet fork lugs, then you actually get a nice set of forks. One of these days I'm either gonna order a set of those, or complete Ohlins forks.

I can honestly see why so few bikes use them and why Husky has changed. Mine randomly leak as well, so every couple rides I tear them apart and rebuild them with fresh oil and seals. I got the seal driver and seal saver tools from Motion pro, and both were under $100 shipped to me. It takes me about 15 minute each fork to rebuild the single chamber zokes.

 

[pvduke]

things to check/do:

allignment: if you have to force the axle into place, your forks are in need of adjustment. the rings on the top of the slider are referance marks. if they are not the same? so what if the axle slides through unforced. loosen one leg and scootch it up or down untill the axle slides through unforced. if the diff is more than a few mm's at the top your preload is off on one leg. once you get that solved set the axle as you would normally. i run my front wheel into a wall before the last pinch is snugged (got this tip from george, used to just bounce them).

top and bottom clamps may grip fork even after you back off the bolts. twisting them a little usually free's them up enough to get them out- AFTER they are cleaned. make sure there's no oil etc on the slider when going back in. torque to spec and not 1# more.

yer oil level might be too high etc etc....and, real important here:
bleed yer forks every ride, during even. i bleed mine after every climb. air heats up and expands going from 2000' to 5500' in one shot. also- if you do a long drop-in equalise them as well as they can pack up due to negative pressure.

if yer just getting little rings of lube every now and then dont sweat it. stuff gets caught behind the wiper and accumulates and then shows up on the legs after a good jolt or long compression. if it's puking and hosing down the leg and brakes have a tuner measure everything if the seals are new. sloppy bushings/bores cause all kinds of problems. tight bushings cause burns on the lowers. diry oil causes issues as well.

grit can get chased up into the well by "filming". it then settles back down and repeats the cycle. fliming is a stop-gap, sometimes it works forever, sometimes not. also- some grease dry out or 'cake' and prop the seal open. i dont grease my seals. they get plenty of lube during the cycle. grease lubes grit that gets past the wiper, makes it easy to force past seal.
if dirt got passed the seal, it's time for a service, and, seals most likely. getting everything spotless is key. also- some tuners let the slider slam down after pulling the damper cap. this frags the seal- every damn time. DONT DO THIS!!!

i think you said you have not replaced the seals? it's super easy. and fun once ya learn the routine. there's a link to a DR/Marz article in here somewhere on bleeding that'll get you trrough it. being CLEAN is paramount. having a good seal driver makes a diff on how long the seals last. if you roach that part of the job yer chasing your tail. i have using pvc pipes. metal seal drivers are heavy and require zero effort to seat the seal/bushing resulting in best results. borrow or buy one if you can. a good seal driver makes a BIG difference.

my '04 CR250R (red bike) got a set every other ride. notorious for bad spec on everything including the seals. i work for the maker so seals were cheap and i could change a set, recylcing the fluid in most cases, in under 30 mins off the bike.

the marz on my 09 and 07 are great forks. fiddled with the valve stacks and made the tranny's more progressive instead of having walls and big steps and man are they REALLY good now.

 

[roostafish]

One simple thing to try would be to check your wheel spacers to see if they are correct for your bike. I once had a KTM that leaked. The problem ended up being a spacer. When I would cinch down the front end, it would pull the fork tubes out of shape and oil would leak, even sitting on the stand.

If you were to change forks, the easiest thing to do is get a whole front end. My favorite forks ever would be both the WP 50mm conventional (late 90's KTM or Gas Gas), and the Showa twin chamber conventional that came on '96-'99 Suzuki RM's. These forks were big enough not to flex, and don't have the binding issues inverted forks have.

 

[pvduke]

there's only one spacer i recall, left side, for the rotor/caliper interface. if that was wrong the rotor would burn up. large clamping surface on the right side of axle has "inegtral spacer", torque that one last as it floats into place when setting the axle.

 

[andy j]

Guys .. thanks for the informed replys... i have only been able to get back on the internet periodically today..

So much information ive read it all twice and still not taken it all in..

i have printed it out.. will report back with action plan soon..

thanks for detailed replys..

Andy

 

[andy j]

great information guys thanks..
ok ive decided to do a strip down in the morning..

im going to head out to my garage to check on the alignment - pre load as suggested.. will take pics as i go along..
in the morning im going shopping..
2 litre 5w fork oil (standard spec)
fork seal driver unless someone can tell me what size PVC..
and some fork seals... lets hope they got them in stock..

anything else??

found this pic on rick ramsey site hopefully mine will look like this soon..
the same forks
im hoping it should be straight forward..
PV duke im not sure what you refer to with the slider bit but will watch out for this.. take my time and try not to let this happen...

going to post pics of this so if i get stuck hope you guys are around to aid me putting it all back together!!!..

Thanks

Andy

 

[pvduke]

anj- slider is the big anodized outer part that gets clamped into the triple-clamp...they slide over the littler shiney inner part that attaches to the wheel.

gotta manual? stuffs avail online. also- slip a plastic shopping bag over the stantion (silver inner part) and oil it BEFORE you slip on the new seal or youll cut the seal on the bushing recesses.

buy an extra set of seals if they gots as well.

happy wrenching!

 

[pvduke]

ooo- 1 more thing.

bust the damper bolt loose at the bottom before you do anything while everything is still bolted up. then loosen top clamp and loosen the top cap with the correct spanner tool. makes it a lot easier to get it apart.

 

[andy j]

update so far..

Ok just read you post mr duke... ta..

got forks out, no drama..
marks on fork tubes all equal at 3 showing at top..
unbolted left hand side (looking at bike) bottom clamp fork tight on spindle, have to push hard to get anysideways movement... put screwdriver into slot between top & bottom half to prise open gets a little easier.. (this is what i do to try and alighn forks before tighting (sometimes stops leaks))..
loosen top clamps fork drops about 3mm no easier movement... play around with fork up and down a few mill no easier...

tighten everything up a little to remove wheel. (remove right hand nut in spindle) loosen bottom clamps, use a 17mm socket lightly tapped to push spindle out to enable me to pull by hand..

remove brake caliper, & guards,, loosen top clamps, remove forks.

inspect..
some wear on the fork tube from front protector -brake cable.. did notice this early on though..
got some odd wear marks on spindle lhs and on space - reducer bit on rhs see pic.. bearings all look good.. any ideas.. just had bike serviced and bearings were inspected/ greased... nothing highlighted to me??

try spindle in in lower clamps on fork now off bike.. moves in & out freely now????? lhs was stiff in fork on bike .. will pay extra care to see why on re assemble... are all yours free moving side to side a few mill??

should i copper grease the spindle when it goes back in???

compressing forks on floor all seems ok, no excessive movements, graunches, not completly smooth can feel the spring moving about on internal bits moving.. whats interesting is on the bike its hard to tell if any rebound damping.. is working on the fork.. compressing the fork on its own its easy to see that it is working you can realy feel it..

now going to watch video and read manual again on the fork strip..
for refrence if anyone is interested this is the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y43k1qFVGW4&feature=channel

 

[pvduke]

spindle = axle, yes?

guard rub- loosen bolts, jiggle guard outwards some so it dont hit. touch up with gloss black before hand etc...

i cant talk ya through this, sorry, im at work. just use common sense. use wheel brg grease on axle. copper = bad things exposed to air. thats a nice shop!!!

see my notes on pre-removal damper nut (bottom) loosening, top damper cap loosening, seal install w/ oiled bag, axle allignment. the rest is straight forward. twin chamber bleed tips too....

http://www.dirtbikemagazine.com/ME2...0&tier=3&nid=B9167CBBFA68494389E0C98078205F56

o snap neighbor called is bringing over a CRF for a rejet. great. hondas blow. but its an easy 75$ i can spend @ motosportz! woot!

 

[andy j]

no probs with the help im only taking apart tonight... its 21.46 here in uk..

ive just taking some video of the fork rebounding on full rebound vrs none to show the difference... just for fun that bit..

just about to go and top up wine glass and seperate the fork out from fork leg!!

no turning back now.!!

yup spindle = axle.. marks on it anyting to worry or need to address??

 

[andy j]

Ok i got everything apart no probs... inside the dust shield was a tiny amount of resting dirt.. the seal itself and surrounding area look and feel real clean.. although occasionally you can feel minute particles of grit...
the oil has been in the forks since april and has done about 16hrs of use..
mx practice, enduro, and general riding at my small track.. its a not clear in fact its solid grey.. i imagine this is all particles of wear from the fork internals.. whilst minute cant be helping with the seal..

there are two pictures of the seal .. didnt realise they had different sides, in my excitment of removing i didnt pay attention to which way on it goes... i will investigate further in the morning.. it appears to have one side more recessed and slightly tappered on one side too.. i guess i always have the other fork i can strip to find out which way on they go..

i would like to expose the valving liek in rick ramsey pict i posted earlier to compare and check.. i do not how to go any further, my manual stops at where i am now.. please advise.. it will be interesting to compare with the standard as the forks were revalved to get rid of harshness over root & breaking bumps.. let me know what i have to do next to get the shim stack exposed..

 

[andy j]

more pics and of the oil seal itself.. now which way does it go???

Im enjoying this so far... compared to earlier when i tried to fix the wireless connection to my sons x box this is so much more enjoyable.

will pick up thread in moring when I get the new bits..

So is the general observation 5wt oil??

also should i be cleaning ALL the old oil residue out, and what with?? i have left the items standing up to drain out, but surely i need to wash out any remaining in case any minute grit particles are still inside??

also again does anyone know how tall the pre load spaces are at standard spec.. mine were reduced as apparently this helps with plushness over small chop bumps... (it worked well)

thanks gain to everyones help.. so far so good..

Kind regards

Andy

 

[ray_ray]

wow ...nice work! UR approaching stud status here .... ... seals look ok from here but they are such a simple device it is hard to tell but if not visibility torn and the spring is good on the inside side, it is most likely ok ... The side with the little spring goes up inside the fork on the oil side ...

I like 2.5 wt for trail riding...

That nut (that has a clicker on it) taken out at the axle end of the fork has a valve on it ... not sure which one it is but it looks like my compression valve but mine is sitting on the opposite end of the fork ( I have the dual chambers 50 mm forks ) ... That small nut the end of it will allow removing the shim stack from the valve ... Be-careful removing the shims as they are small, thin, and will be stuck together with oil film ... Continue to use the camera to save the current setup of valve and shims...

The rebound \ mid valves are probably still in the housing on that sliver shaft and not shown yet ...

To further explain the grease trick, it is to provide a bearier inside the dust cover to stop dirt from ever reaching the seal ... And it is not a fire-and-forget operation as the grease will eventually get hard ... One guy was saying to use some soft type material here, soaked in oil to fill up the empty space in the seal and stop dirt from reaching the seal...

UPDATE: The seals actually have springs on both sides ... The side with the larger looking spring goes up inside the fork on the oil side OR put the side wide the lettering on the outside towards the dust cap ...

 

[andy j]

The the nut with the clicker is my compression adjustment and sits on the bottom of my forks... so all the shims for the compression are in here?? seems a bit small
So to get to the compression stack i have to somehow take apart this little piece of engineering..

Its odd but some how i expected the compression valaving (you say inside the small end piece with clicker adjustment) to be bigger... that shim stack that i posted earlier from rick ramsey standard TE 310 is the compression stack then.. the bit ive yet to expose??

Im a little dissapointed i think, i expected the internals to fall apart in my hands so i could rebuild and fix.. ive got to say so far everything seems really well put together & good quality with no loose play or broken bits..

think i got what you mean with which way round the seal goes.. they do look in perfect condition. the two small springs either side look perfect too.. will my new seals come with these alredy on or do i need to carefuylly swap them over?

the internal tube has a small nut about 2" up into it, its the tube just above the fork leg in the last picture.. is it this that i unscrew to remove the rebound valving??


all good fun this so far..

 

[ray_ray]

Not really sure on what valve it is but that is what my compression valve looked like ... Here is a pic and removing that small nut on the end is what holds the shims and valve in place ...

The Ramsey photo appears to have a broken down compression valve on the right and the rebound \ mid valves still attached to the rods on the left ...If this pics show the stock stack, you will your comparison data ...

The springs come attached to the new seals ...

I have circled what appears to be another valve in the last pic you posted ... not sure on how to get all these components ...maybe some one who has torn these apart can comment ...

 

[andy j]

thanks..


The valve you have circled is from the lower part of the fork and does my compression adjustment on these single chamber versions...
not sure how its adjusts the flow to the stack still in the long tubes..
(going to try and remove in a while)..

therefore im confused!

guess the only way is to take it apart and see..
In the Ramsey picture just below the 45mm black plastic pre load spaces is a nut with what looks like a screw thread attached to it.. this is the nut i can see up inside the third tube from the left next to the rod in the picture.. i guess this just unscrews... and then inside may be the shims laid out in the picture.. im really curious... this must how Archeoligist feel when they on the verge of discovery.. lets hope its not been cursed!!.

If it all fails this is my get my out of trouble option might have to sell a right arm to get them though!

http://www.marzocchi.co.uk/moto/131692-C.html

 

[ray_ray]

Sorry about the confusion ... different forks with similar looking parts ... It may have been the position of valve laying with the other pieces that confused me ... this pic has what appears to be my compression valve but is at the bottom of UR forks ... the inner circle are the shims...

I don't under stand their working either ... I know the oil is forced through the valves and bend the shims in the process causing the fork damping at all the different speeds it encounters ....

The second untouched fork becomes gold here but I have read out here where one fork differs from the second ...