TE/TC 4CS Issues

[HuskyMax]

But they came on the bike already, so not really apples to apples. If someone destroyed their 4CS forks in an accident and needed to replace them, paying an extra $593 for Cone Valve forks would seem cheap!

What I was complaining about was that (KTM&Husky especially Husky since its the premium brand) should put the cone valve forks on the bike at the assembly line. They could stop waisting R&D time and money on 4cs and go with i would assume is really good (might be to complicated for the intended buyer).
The cost really couldn't be that much more,the internals aren't radically different.
On that note I would like to see some magneto-rheological suspension. Then I can play the FI and suspension on the laptop.

 

[Zack]

I've ridden with an 18 year old expert who rides a 15 KTM with stock forks. He is tough enough to take the beating that the forks dish out (and fast enough to exceed their limitations). He just laughs about all of my suspension talk. I'm old and not nearly as tough as I used to be. Plus, I can now afford the mods. I was originally going to just get Kreft to reshim with his valves, but it was my wife (who rides quite well and gets it) who said just get the good stuff. I think she'd rather have me spend the money than hear me bitch about not getting it done later.

 

[HuskyMax]

Again, we need to focus here. I am talking about 4cs forks. How many 4cs forks have you sent to them? I agree that Zipty does amazing suspension work but I stand by my decision to not gut a suspension just because they can't improve the design. As I also mentioned I may regret that decision but so far it seems like I made the correct choice. I'd rather sell my 4cs and buy open chambers than to devalue my investment but that's just me. It's nice to have different options and I think we need to focus on that.

Sent my forks to Ty and just wanted to clarify that they don't really gut them and they are not really devalued unless you decide to throw the parts away. The base taps came back in a bag and i was surprised that was all that had to be removed to get the forks working. I almost pulled the trigger on the full Kreft mods, but after talking to Ty he gave me a lot of confidence in his work. Wish I had the demographic to try other peoples mods but my area doesn't see much suspension tuning.
Side note: The service manager where i bought my bike sends all his stuff to factory connection and he has 2 4cs equipped bikes.

 

[Motosportz]

I guess if you only end up with compression adjustments on the bottom and rebound on the top is how you would know you no longer have a 4CS fork. With the asymmetrical, you have 4 adjustments. Other than that, I don't know enough to tell the difference without fully dissembling the forks. I'm more concerned with service intervals on this new setup TBH. I hope it doesn't fade when the oil gets old half way through the season...

you are changing out major parts of the suspension (Shown in vid) and have different adjustors than stock, thats not 4CS anymore either then is it?

 

[reveille]

As I understand it, yes it is. The components are true to the OEM 4CS concept with increased oil flow and increased adjustments to address the stock limitations. Upgraded base valves(Huck valves) and a redesigned mid valve to increase metering but the 4CS design lives on with this system. Jeremy works with Ty and Ty buys components from MXTech, it won't be long before they offer this system IMO. If they don't I would be surprised since so much engineering and research went into this.

 

[Chums]

you are changing out major parts of the suspension (Shown in vid) and have different adjustors than stock, thats not 4CS anymore either then is it?

After I talked to all these tuners I figured out they are throwing parts at the 4cs re-engineering them. I asked them all, what the base package would cost just to get them to work better without the bells and whistles and they were all $600-800 except zipty. Zipty adds parts to the 4CS like the other guys and I still have 4cs forks on my bike like the other guys ( the parts are there) the only differences are the other guys need twice the money to make a crappy fork work under its original design and I'll let anyone ride my bike who's around my weight and bet that none of us "amateurs" are good enough to tell the difference between a $600-800 kreft,mxtech,or Stillwell and an open fork mod bottom line.

Not giving guys who spent the money a hard time, just saying to each there own. The less money I have to spend to fix KTM's mess up the better and using zipty will be leas than a normal revalve at my local guy on normal forks, seemed like a simple choice.

 

[Motosportz]

As I understand it, yes it is. The components are true to the OEM 4CS concept with increased oil flow and increased adjustments to address the stock limitations. Upgraded base valves(Huck valves) and a redesigned mid valve to increase metering but the 4CS design lives on with this system. Jeremy works with Ty and Ty buys components from MXTech, it won't be long before they offer this system IMO. If they don't I would be surprised since so much engineering and research went into this.

Great info, thanks. I think for people that like to adjust and experiment (I'm one) the adjustability is interesting and unique.

 

[diggs345]

Mxa have some interesting comments about the 2015 4cs forks in their review of the 2015 sxf450

4CS FORKS:
Nothing we have told you about the 2015 KTM 450SXF is news so far. KTM’s have always had the best brakes, best clutches, best components, best starting and best all-around handling. What they haven’t had is suspension that was worth a dang. Tired of being whipped up one side and down the other for their suspension shortcomings, KTM North American decided to do something about it. They had a new fork design, called 4CS, that had been lingering with very little development on Husaberg and select KTM offroad bikes. It wasn’t a highly touted fork and didn’t get many kudos, but KTM’s USA division felt that it had been underdeveloped. It is a highly creative design and they felt that it just might be the magic elixir that KTM needed to shake their reputation for poor suspension. Lord knows they needed some kind of shake-up.

The first motocross version of the 4CS fork appeared on the 2014 KTM 450SXF Factory Edition III. Yes, it was better than the WP bladder forks that KTM had been using for years. Yes, it did pique the interest of consumers, but no it wasn’t perfect. It was an improvement over previous WP efforts. But, remember, improvement does not translate into “very good” or “great” — it just means better than what came before. While the Factory Edition III’s 4CS forks were a step in the right direction, they were overly firm, actually down right stiff, especially for slower riders. Heck, they were harsh for fast riders. But, they had potential.

It turns out that WP Austria didn’t want to work on the 4CS forks — they wanted to stick with the tried and true (we really meant to say hated) WP bladder fork for 2015. All praise and credit goes to KTM’s American product testing department because they decided to work out the kinks in the 4CS fork by themselves — and make it the fork of choice for all 2015 KTM’s in America. The rest of the world gets the old bladder fork.

This was a gamble that could have ended with an “I told you so” from the Austrian brass or the plaudits of American KTM owners.

So which is it? It’s plaudits. These are very good forks. Not great, but forks that we can live with, race with and enjoy—instead of cringing every time we see a bump on the horizon. KTM softened the harshness of the Factory Edition III forks and the feel is much more fluid through the stroke. And, they will only get better once the hop-up gurus of North America get a chance to learn what’s inside the 4CS valving. As for now, the typical hop-up shop doesn’t have a clue what to do to make the forks better. They will need human guinea pigs to experiment with—but, in time, they will find lots of ways to improve the new 4CS fork. The 2015 4CS fork is an improved version of the Factory Edition III fork, which was a big improvement over the old bladder fork. And by our account that is a lot of improvements in less than six months.

http://motocrossactionmag.com/news/what-its-like-to-race-the-2015-ktm-450sxf

 

[Tinken]

What I was trying to explain before was that I wasn't knocking your curiosity to play with the new valving system or to buy fancy parts. From a professional stand point, you don't need any of that. Properly set up forks are not going to bottom and will out perform any of those systems with low weight and simplicity. The only professionals that use those systems are getting paid to do so (very few), everyone else swaps out the cartridges or the the whole forks altogether. KTM is going to an air fork and will most likely drop the 4cs line. We will end up swapping those units out for working forks too.

@Reveille- start chilling that beer.

 

[Norman Foley]

Mxa have some interesting comments about the 2015 4cs forks in their review of the 2015 sxf450

4CS FORKS:
Nothing we have told you about the 2015 KTM 450SXF is news so far. KTM’s have always had the best brakes, best clutches, best components, best starting and best all-around handling. What they haven’t had is suspension that was worth a dang. Tired of being whipped up one side and down the other for their suspension shortcomings, KTM North American decided to do something about it. They had a new fork design, called 4CS, that had been lingering with very little development on Husaberg and select KTM offroad bikes. It wasn’t a highly touted fork and didn’t get many kudos, but KTM’s USA division felt that it had been underdeveloped. It is a highly creative design and they felt that it just might be the magic elixir that KTM needed to shake their reputation for poor suspension. Lord knows they needed some kind of shake-up.

The first motocross version of the 4CS fork appeared on the 2014 KTM 450SXF Factory Edition III. Yes, it was better than the WP bladder forks that KTM had been using for years. Yes, it did pique the interest of consumers, but no it wasn’t perfect. It was an improvement over previous WP efforts. But, remember, improvement does not translate into “very good” or “great” — it just means better than what came before. While the Factory Edition III’s 4CS forks were a step in the right direction, they were overly firm, actually down right stiff, especially for slower riders. Heck, they were harsh for fast riders. But, they had potential.

It turns out that WP Austria didn’t want to work on the 4CS forks — they wanted to stick with the tried and true (we really meant to say hated) WP bladder fork for 2015. All praise and credit goes to KTM’s American product testing department because they decided to work out the kinks in the 4CS fork by themselves — and make it the fork of choice for all 2015 KTM’s in America. The rest of the world gets the old bladder fork.

This was a gamble that could have ended with an “I told you so” from the Austrian brass or the plaudits of American KTM owners.

So which is it? It’s plaudits. These are very good forks. Not great, but forks that we can live with, race with and enjoy—instead of cringing every time we see a bump on the horizon. KTM softened the harshness of the Factory Edition III forks and the feel is much more fluid through the stroke. And, they will only get better once the hop-up gurus of North America get a chance to learn what’s inside the 4CS valving. As for now, the typical hop-up shop doesn’t have a clue what to do to make the forks better. They will need human guinea pigs to experiment with—but, in time, they will find lots of ways to improve the new 4CS fork. The 2015 4CS fork is an improved version of the Factory Edition III fork, which was a big improvement over the old bladder fork. And by our account that is a lot of improvements in less than six months.

http://motocrossactionmag.com/news/what-its-like-to-race-the-2015-ktm-450sxf

The unfortunate part of this story is..... No KTM (or Husky) Factory Teams, MX or Off Road run these forks, so how can they develop them?

 

[reveille]

I have the shop heater running full blast as I finish my breakfast. I'll be cleaning and lubing the linkage and then re installing the suspension today. It's supposed to get above freezing so I may take her out for a rip and see how it feels. Nothing will be determined until March when I head down to Tennessee for the MTDR event. If we get a snow melt before than I can take it to the local riding park for some fine tuning.

One thing I may not have mentioned regarding my personal decision of who will rework my forks was price. While the perceived lower price of sending my forks to Zipty seemed like a smart idea at first, the distance between my home and their shop added so much in shipping and the cost of packaging, that the final cost was nearly the same as having my local shop(MXTech) do the asymmetrical system work. Another decision was the what if's, and those are real what ifs. What if I send it to ZipTy and I'm not happy with the valving? I asked them and like any great tuner they stand behind their work. All I would have to do is drop anther $175 to ship my forks there and back as many times as it takes. I chose local, but I was blessed to have a local shop that has a solution. In the end I'm sure I would have ended up with a great working set of forks and we are blessed to have choices. Of course one will say the other is better but in the end as long as we are happy and have a great time riding that's all that matters.

 

[Motosportz]

All good points and makes sense not that you have to justify your fun money to anyone. There is big value in having the suspension tuner local and accessible if it is not spot on. That said I have found Ty to really nail settings more than most. I've ridden 4 of his jobs, one is mine and all hit the bullseye. Massive experience and understanding does this. The multi adjustability is cool and I'm sure it will all work fine for you as they have obviously put a lot of time and research into it. Look forward to your reports.

 

[Steve Kanya]

Hey big Mike you have the best forks that ever came on a dirt bike sitting in your garage. Have Drew re-valve them for the rocks and throw them 2006 YZ forks on the Huskie. Fun day on the ice last week.

 

[bowser]

Seems a step backwards turning 4CS forks into open chambers. I would have just bought the KTM equivalent with the OC forks if thats what I wanted.
OC are nothing special even when revolved etc

 

[ajaxauto]

You spend 10,000 on a new bike then you worry about the price to get the forks done . In 2006 when I first purchased a new Husky. They came with Zoke. NO ONE I talked to in Southern Calif wanted to work on them or really even knew how to. I was to say the least not a happy Husky owner. But then at the time a great Husky sales person Rob Keith say I should call Eraldo Fericci at FBF in Pen I did Eraldo said but your stuff in a cheap gun case and ship them to me I did that is 6,000 miles round trip and in 2007 I won a National # 1 plate I do not even remember what it cost but I will always remember how well it worked That year the main guy at Zoke factory came to Zip Ty racing and now Ty works on the Zokes
Other then that year I have used Zip Ty since 1999 on all my bikes. See the thing about Ty is he is a racer who has raced all over the world on all kinds of bikes. He has the experience to get it correct the first time Lets see has any one ever came on here and said they got a bad deal So get a gun case and 175 dollars and put a shipping label on it. I bet the shipping cost is the cheapest thing you purchase for your bike

 

[Motosportz]

You spend 10,000 on a new bike then you worry about the price to get the forks done .

Yes. IMHO 10K bike should have some pretty good suspension that does not need reengineered. Yamaha, Beta, Sherco, Honda, AJP, and others all come with very good stock suspension. Sherco has some very good WP forks on them stock. It can be done. If your a top racer and need more than that a revalve makes sense. If you buy an off road bike and are near the target range at all it should work pretty good as is. Yamaha has had no issues nailing it for years. Betas and Sherco too. If you are at the extremes weight and size wise then, yes, you should expect some work. Even the KYBs that came on the last versions of the italian huskys were very good and easy to adjust into range. Its not rocket science. Berg seemed to get it right a lot of times. The FE390 I rode for a weekend had excellent WP off road suspension.

Mxa have some interesting comments about the 2015 4cs forks in their review of the 2015 sxf450

4CS FORKS:
Nothing we have told you about the 2015 KTM 450SXF is news so far. KTM’s have always had the best brakes, best clutches, best components, best starting and best all-around handling. What they haven’t had is suspension that was worth a dang. Tired of being whipped up one side and down the other for their suspension shortcomings...

Not cool.

 

[Norman Foley]

Yes. IMHO 10K bike should have some pretty good suspension that does not need reengineered. Yamaha, Beta, Sherco, Honda, AJP, and others all come with very good stock suspension. Sherco has some very good WP forks on them stock. It can be done. If your a top racer and need more than that a revalve makes sense. If you buy an off road bike and are near the target range at all it should work pretty good as is. Yamaha has had no issues nailing it for years. Betas and Sherco too. If you are at the extremes weight and size wise then, yes, you should expect some work. Even the KYBs that came on the last versions of the italian huskys were very good and easy to adjust into range. Its not rocket science. Berg seemed to get it right a lot of times. The FE390 I rode for a weekend had excellent WP off road suspension.



Not cool.

What year 390 was that?

KTM and WP have a history of reinventing the wheel suspension wise.... They actually get something good and then go off in another direction. I can't speak for MX, but off road people thought the '08 WP CC forks were crap, by '12 they were excellent. The Airgroup Husky Team and many other teams, still run these forks, not Cone Valve or 4CS.

Simpler to service, lighter weight and lower cost, was said to be the reason, that 4CS was designed. It's tough when customers are expected to be the beta tester for product developement....but what feedback is KTM/Husky getting?

It seems like there should be a Factory "B Kit" that is 4CS based, that WP Factory Services would have for lower level racers. This would be the way to get feedback and make the fork better.

 

[TROFFER88]

Thing is these forks are as good stock as any other stock off road forks . MX I don't know , I have and have had a lot of new bikes and these forks are as good or better than any of them stock to stock .I have let a lot of guys ride my bikes ranging from beginners to A and no one felt they sucked. Flame away.

 

[LandofMotards]

Thing is these forks are as good stock as any other stock off road forks . MX I don't know , I have and have had a lot of new bikes and these forks are as good or better than any of them stock to stock .I have let a lot of guys ride my bikes ranging from beginners to A and no one felt they sucked. Flame away.

Flame away? Awesome that they work for you! You saved a shit ton of money lol.

They seem hit or miss for people, I can't say it's a deal breaker for me. Zip-Ty can correct it at a great price if i did hate the forks.

 

[TROFFER88]

Oh i ain't saying there the cats ass or I havnt had a set redone . I'am just saying in stock form compared to the competitions stock off-road stuff I feel they are equal or a little better .