449 / 511 valve shim and cup question

[jmk015]

I'm doing a valve adjustment on my 2011 TC449. I currently have a 4.60mm "half ball" shim on both of my intake valves. My valves are too tight (I can't even fit a .038mm feeler gauge in there), so I need a smaller shim.

Here's my problem: The 4.60 is the smallest shim that Husqvarna and BMW (the g450X has the same motor) sells. The "half balls" for the intake aren't sold by any aftermarket companies... so I can't get any that are thinner than 4.60. I'll need a 4.40 to bring it back into TC specs. A 4.50 would put me in TE specs, so either is probably fine.

I decided to try to file my 4.60 shim down (bad idea, I know), but they are so hardened that after 30 minutes of filing I didn't remove any material at all.


On the Husky, there is a little 'cap' over the top of the intake valve stems. Its part of item #1 in the schematic:

But, the BMW doesn't use this little intake valve 'cap':

As far as I an tell, both the Husky and BMW use the same valves, and shims... so why does the Husky use the 'cap' and the BMW doesn't??


Since they don't make a shim small enough to solve my problem, here's what I'm thinking:

I'd need a 4.40mm half ball shim with the intake valve cap to get .2mm valve clearance.

OR, I can remove the 'cap' (which is 1.3mm thick) and use a 5.7mm half ball shim, which I can buy from Husky.


I assume that Husky has a reason for using the intake valve cap, but I have no idea what it is, and I have no idea why the BMW doesn't use one, since they are the same motor. I've called both of my local Husky and BMW dealers, and asked them about the cap, and no one had any idea.

Will bad things happen if I don't use the intake valve 'caps' and use a thicker half ball shim to get my valves within spec???

 

[jmk015]

I should add that I took the head to my local machine shop (who does the motors for the local Yamaha race team, so they're good)

They said that the valves, seats, and guides were all GOOD. I was thinking that if a valve seat was bad/sunken in it would make my valve clearance way too tight... but apparently that's not my problem. The machine shop said that the head and valves were in great shape.

 

[jmk015]

Bump... it doesn't seem like people know very much about these motors. I'm hoping someone on the forums can shed some light on the purpose/necessity of the intake valve 'cups', since it looks like I'll need to remove mine to get my valve clearance back into spec with a factory available ball shim.

 

[Trenchcoat85]

hmmm- did the shop measure the valve to see if the stem was stretching?

on this forum, Big Timmy has experience with both motors (he has a husky motor in his beemer). also the bmw forum guys have ocd- put their anal-retentive tendencies to work. They're pretty knowledgeable.

 

[jmk015]

There isn't any valve stem stretch, one of my intake valves shims up just fine with a factory available shim, and the other won't. Both valve stems are the same length to two places past the decimal (in millimeters) which is the accuracy limit of my micrometer.


Good advice about the BMW forum, I'll join over there and see if anyone cam help out...

 

[jmk015]

The BMW guys didn't seem to know anything, but their bikes don't use the lash cup anyway...


Here's what I've figured out, hopefully it can help someone else since there is very little info out there about these motors:

The 'cup' that sits on the intake valve stems is called a 'lash cup'. They are made my Del West, the same company that makes the valves in this bike. All of Del West's lash cups come with a 1.5mm ceiling thickness (including the ones on my bike), but they can be custom ordered with any ceiling thickness you want.

I'm going to custom order two, one with a 1.2mm thickness and one with a 1.1mm thickness. Using one of the smallest available shims (4.6-4.7mm) the 1.2mm lash cup should get my valve clearance in spec. I want to have the 1.1mm lash cup on had in case my valves ever tighten up.

 

[Big Timmy]

The valve stems lash cap/cup is split in 2 halves isn't it? It's used on the Husky's as a lash cap. It also acts as the valve keepers for the spring retainers. Lash caps are commonly used on Titanium valves tips. It keeps them from galling, or mushrooming over on the stem for lack of a better term. So the valves will come out of the heads valve guides easily without doing any damage. A titanium valve will roll over on the ends if a cap of some kind is not used and you don't want to have to pound them out do you?

Humm, JMK, that would depend on who you asked at the BMW site. I didn't see any inquiries about this on the "G450X riders forum or registry" and I am the Moderator. I check the sight at least 4 times a day. I Moderate the "HuskyTalk" section also. BMW calls the valve keepers a "Valve Collet", that's item 11. A pair is used on each valve, so 8 are needed. They are all the same on both the Intake and Exhaust valves The BMWs run the same Del West titanium valves as the 449/511 Husky's. I have a 2011 TC 449 engine in my G450X now. I like the hotter cams myself.

Lash caps would provide a larger diameter surface area at the valves tip as well for the semi spheres to rub upon. They are not necessarily needed though because that's the same thing the semi sphere does. It increases the diameter at the tip and allows for you to make adjustments. At the same time increasing the valve stems diameter. Which helps to correct for any geometry or position change as it swings or sort of smears the rocker/follower across the tops of the valves tips semi spheres, so it has the same contact point through out the swing of the followers fulcrum.

Lash caps would be used on about any race engine with "Del West" or any other different manufacturer's of Titanium valves. The thing is. There are hardly any other manufactures but "Del West".

I ran 5/16" stems in my Aluminum 572" Indy Maxx Race Hemi Engine with "Del West Titanium valves with a 2.40 diameter and a set of "Del West" lash caps too. The keepers were separate though from the lash caps/cups. It made close to 950HP with a Mild .740 roller cam. The Lash caps make the rockers contact surface area larger for the roller tip on the rockers. At the same time keep the tips on the expensive valves from getting damaged as you don't grind them flat again like you would do on a car during a simple valve job.

Lots of guys when re-doing the heads will go with a set of Stainless Steel valves as they are more durable in the long run. "ZipTy Racing" does this quite a bit. But they do it to heads ported to build power down lower in the RPM range and don't spin the engine at 10500 rpm against the rev limiters either. Like a motocrosser would possibly do. So Titanium is good for higher sustained RPMs, as they are lighter.

The lash Caps/Cups keeps the stem from taking direct metal to metal scrubbing effect from the semi spheres and the followers. Increases the surface diameter too. So smaller stems can be used on the valves, less weight, less flow restriction in the port. = Higher revs. The TC cams are a bit more high strung then the TE cams or the BMW's.

As for the Husky picture and the BMW picture. The Husky picture shows it twice as it comes included with the new valves as an assembly it appears to me. So the valve and keeper lash cup are included together. Why they show it that way I couldn't tell you?

It should be the same as part / item number "6" on the Husky drawing and item 11 on the BMW drawing where it is only showed once with the Intake valve. "Correctly"

K16 (G 450 X) G 450 X (0145) Timing gear - Intake valve/exhaust valve

Select another vehicle > Engine > Valves with springs
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No.DescriptionSupp.Qty From Up To Part NumberPrice Notes
01 INTAKE VALVE 2 11347706966 $211.69 +core
02 EXHAUST VALVE 2 11347706967 $209.45 +core
03 Spacer 2,30MM 2 11327675540 $6.73
03 Spacer 2,35MM 2 11327675542 $6.73
03 Spacer 2,40MM 2 11327675707 $6.73
03 Spacer 2,45MM 2 11327675709 $6.73
03 Spacer 2,50MM 2 11327675711 $6.73
03 Spacer 2,55MM 2 11327675713 $6.73
03 Spacer 2,60MM 2 11327675715 $6.73
03 Spacer 2,65MM 2 11327675717 $6.73
03 Spacer 2,70MM 2 11327675719 $6.73
03 Spacer 2,75MM 2 11327675777 $6.73
03 Spacer 2,80MM 2 11327675779 $6.73
03 Spacer 2,85MM 2 11327675781 $6.73
03 Spacer 2,90MM 2 11327675783 $6.73
03 Spacer 2,95MM 2 11327675785 $6.73
03 Spacer 3,00MM 2 11327675787 $6.73
04 Valve lifter 2 11347728383 +core
05 Semi-sphere 4,60 2 11347721166
05 Semi-sphere 4,65 2 11347721167
05 Semi-sphere 4,70 2 11347721168
05 Semi-sphere 4,75 2 11347721170
05 Semi-sphere 4,80 2 11347721172
05 Semi-sphere 4,85 2 11347721174
05 Semi-sphere 4,90 2 11347721176
05 Semi-sphere 4,95 2 11347721178
05 Semi-sphere 5,00 2 11347721180
05 Semi-sphere 5,05 2 11347721182
05 Semi-sphere 5,10 2 11347721184
05 Semi-sphere 5,15 2 11347721186
05 Semi-sphere 5,20 2 11347721187
05 Semi-sphere 5,25 2 11347721188
05 Semi-sphere 5,30 2 11347721189
05 Semi-sphere 5,35 2 11347721190
05 Semi-sphere 5,40 2 11347721191
05 Semi-sphere 5,45 2 11347721192
05 Semi-sphere 5,50 2 11347721193
05 Semi-sphere 5,55 2 11347721194
05 Semi-sphere 5,60 2 11347721195
05 Semi-sphere 5,65 2 11347721196
05 Semi-sphere 5,70 2 11347721197
06 Rocker arm shaft, inlet 2 11337706977 $22.29
07 Circlip 9-PHR 2 07119932872 $0.55
08 Rocker arm 2 11337724819 +core
09 O-ring 9X1,5 1 07119906614 $3.49
fitted only on the right
10 Fillister-head screw M6X16-8.8 1 07119906625
fitted only on the left
10 Collar screw M6 1 11337706978
11 VALVE COLLET 8 11347706965 $2.35
12 Upper spring plate 4 11347706964 $10.73 +core
13 Valve seal ring 4 11341461679 $6.12
14 VALVE SPRING 4 11347706962 $13.49 +core
15 Lower spring plate 4 11347706961 $7.30
Notes

 

[Big Timmy]

Just a side note, are you measuring at the valve tips, semi sphere contact to the follower or at the cams lobe against the follower?

 

[jmk015]

You didn't see me on the BMW site, because I didn't post there. I called a few different BMW dealers and talked to their service guys about it.

I'm measuring clearance between the follower and cam lobe, like shown in the above photo.

Number 11 in that BMW diagram is the two piece valve collet. This piece is also sometimes called the 'retainer clip' or something similar. It is different from the one piece lash cap. all 4 valves obviously have two of these valve collets, as they holed the spring retainer on. This is a different piece than the lash cap. Numbers 3 and 5 are the shims.

My TC449 only has the last caps on the two intake valves, and does not have them on the exhaust valves. According to the guys at my 'local' Husky dealer, and the parts book, this is correct. Lash caps on intakes only, not exhaust. The lash caps are NOT two pieces, they're just a one piece 'cup' that fits snugly over the valve stem.

According to the guys at my local BMW shop, the g450x does not use lash caps at all, and they are not pictured in the parts book. The BMW guys could be wrong, and the book could just not show them... which is why I was asking if anyone who's been inside a g450 motor remembered seeing the lash caps.

 

[Big Timmy]

JMK, Please click on the link below and see page 17 of 30 of the BMW engine diagrams this may be of some use to you. This group of pictures also shows the oiling circuits and many other things you wont see in the dealerships Manuals or repair CDs. I posted the picture from that page here below and it doesn't show the lash cup/caps top itself. Its a Titanium valve so its on there. It looks like a ring around the tip of the valve stem in the cutaway picture.

Sorry its in "German".

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2ts4nmrd2e...ation.pdf?dl=0

The lash cap would be separate from the 2 piece collets/valve keepers. Sorry about my lack of explaining it further or use of my own verbage or improper nomenclature. I've called them lash caps for years, I ran them on all my Chrysler 426 based Hemi's since 1982.

"Husky" calls them lash cups?

"Del West" called them Lash caps. So does the automotive industry. I've bought about 6 sets of Titanium valves and lash caps for my Race Hemi's over the last 30 years. At a few hundred dollars+ a piece. I am still paying for them and I sold my last full on Drag Car over 10 years ago.

Sorry I go back to the word lash caps and always will. As I had referred to them as separate pieces on my Race Hemi and as being separate from the keepers. If the lash cap was part of the keepers themselves you would be bearing down on the keepers, not necessarily on the valves tip, which could essentially release a spring retainer. While opening the valve.

None of the pictures you or I have are very good. But this cutaway one below shows the lash cap as separate from the keepers/collets/2 piece retainer clips, What ever you want to call it.

As it again, isn't a good representation of the lash cap being in place on the G450 Engines. It just doesn't show the top thickness of it as a cap/cup under the Semi Sphere. But it isn't a ring over the tip of the valve like it appears to be in the picture below either. Sorry for the confusion. These pieces are so hard. Even the best quality files, even after half an hour filing won't even smudge anything but the face of the files teeth. The only way they can be sized is by proper grinding with the proper grinding stone on that specific grinder. Or it will disintegrate the grinding wheel too. A file isn't going to cut it. A diamond faced sharpening stone might but its not something I would consider doing at home for half an hour.

You said in your first post:

"I'm doing a valve adjustment on my 2011 TC449. I currently have a 4.60mm "half ball" shim on both of my intake valves. My valves are too tight (I can't even fit a .038mm feeler gauge in there), so I need a smaller shim".

If "Del West" will resize a set of them thinner for you. I would go that route.
***************************************************************************************************************************


TC specs are 0.20mm to 0.25mm on the intakes. These Semi Spheres as do other hardened components do wear over time. They could be considered a sacrificial component. When compared to the damage that would be done to the valves tip. As a witness mark will be left on the underside from the contact surface. Compared to a set of new ones.

As an example of this happened to me myself.

I recently did an Exhaust valve adjustment on my FE501 at 72 hours. The first time where checking them required a change as they were loosening up. Just outside of the cold set tolerance. The left one was a tight .19mm the other at .17mm. The clearance is supposed to be within .12mm to .17mm. They were just at the limit. I have 2 full sets of 3 each of every 8.90mm Diameter valve shims for this engine. From 1.72mm to 2.60mm in .02mm incremental thicknesses. 1.72,1.74,1.76 and so on.

I had a pair of original 2.20mm shims installed from the factory on both exhaust valves. I tried the next thicker pair of shims (2.22mm) to tighten it up and it measured way to tight. I ended up installing a pair of new 2.20mm shims just like it had and they checked out at .13mm and .14mm respectively. Its very hard to check this close with a feeler gauge. The old shims I took out and threw in the boxed set had a visual wear mark but that was not measurable with the digital caliper as it was only worn in the center of the shims. A new set of the same size and thickness brought it back into specs just fine.

Hope the link above and this picture below helps.

I needed to read and edit my post before I submitted it. Now that I read my own response post to you. The first 3 sentences is a bit confusing even to me. I didn't read it as I typed something else in the middle of that as I was trying to explain.

What I should have said was.

"The valve stems lash cap/cup is on the valves tip isn't it? It's used on the Husky's as a lash cap. Your keepers/Collets split in 2 halves and they act as the valve keepers for the spring retainers".

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[jmk015]

Thanks for the link, photos, and all the info. That really clarified things. I ordered lash caps from Del west with a 0.10mm thinner 'ceiling', which will put my valves right where they need to be and will solve my problem.

 

[Big Timmy]

Are you the original owner of this bike? The reason I ask is? Has the engine been opened up before. For any service that you are aware of?

The question remains that your intake valves must sit lower in the seats on your 2011 TCs cylinder head than any I've seen. That would account for the lack of valve clearance that exists in your engine.

If everything else checks out to specs, stem lengths, valve face diameter etc. (never been cut reground) and you are currently running the thinnest set of Intake adjuster shims "Semi Spheres" available for these engines.

The only explanation to me for your overly tight installed clearance is that the seats may have been cut during a previous cylinder head service.

Anything is possible, We have a recent member of the (from just a week ago) on the "G450X riders forum" that bought a G450X and his bike was running weak and making valve train noise. During a tear down of the rocker box to do an inspection and adjustment, come to find out. His engine didn't even have any semi spheres installed on the intake valves and it was running !

He is trying to determine how to calculate what thickness of "semi sphere" adjusters to install? Without buying un-needed parts. He could have easily dropped both intake valves.
The few members whom responded to this post "Quickly" recommended that the entire cylinder head be serviced and checked out before the results were obviously catastrophic.

So don't feel like the "Lone Ranger" with your particular issue or lack of competent dealership mechanical information out there.

You said it yourself.

"Bump... it doesn't seem like people know very much about these motors". [END QUOTE].

You can read the guys post below: This Gentleman has an engine that was actually running. That someone assembled with probably more problems than you can imagine. We are still waiting for a reply on the forum.

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So this weekend I took of the tappet cover just checked if the timing was correct but I didn't bother toe check the clearances​

Since my feeler wasn't with me. And I closed it up and cleaned ( the the throttle body.​

Then I added some injector cleaner to the feul.​

After about 5 km she felt sick​

So I drained the feul . did the same.​

Re placed the plug. Did the same and didn't want to start​

So last night I removed the tapet cover again to check the valve clearance and all the plugs I removed and worked on the weekend​

​

Then I removed the cams and found​

There's no halve round shims on the intake valves​

The cam followers is just laying on the valves.​

​

Is there some sort of way I can calculate +- wat shim size​

I have to get.​

I'm sure that's why the bike felt so weak.​

At first when I got here and started here up. To me she sounded like the valves needed attention.​

But the next day it sounded soft to me . I only drove about 20 km with it at least . I saw the valve collect almost jumed out its place​

Will try to post some pics . but from my phone it gives a message of low memory​

Last edited; 1 Week Ago at 07:01 AM.​