I never have to give my bike throttle to start it (for reference)
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Hi everyone,
As you all know, Coffee (Dean) passed away a couple of years ago. I am Dean's ex-wife's husband and happen to have spent my career in tech. Over the years, I occasionally helped Dean with various tech issues.
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Over the past couple of weeks, I’ve been working to migrate the site to a free cloud compute instance so that Woodschick and Dirtdame no longer have to fund it. At the same time, I’ve updated the site to a current version of XenForo (the discussion software it runs on). The previous version was outdated and no longer supported.
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Thanks for your patience and support!
449/511 retard the timing with PCV at low RPM... Flameout Theory...
- Thread starter Thrasher
- Start date
bhuizer
Husqvarna
A Class
Hot/warm starts in general, sometimes it will pop right off other times it takes a touch of throttle. It’s inconsistent, I started my bike 30-40 times on a 350 mile trip both hot and cold. My buddies G450X starts instantly every time, he makes me mad lol.
I had it not start on me a couple times when I probably was too aggressive with the throttle. I waited 20-seconds for the bike to power down, tried it again and it fired right up. Embarrassing when out of 10 guys in the group, yours is the only one that didn’t start. Had a few “need a can of ether?” comments lol.
As inconsistent as it is, it almost has to be a tune issue or something that the ECU is seeing. Possibly timing? I will try messing with the tune a bit and see what I can come up with.
Adding the PCV and additional fuel in the low rpm's helped a lot, but it’s still not perfect. I have an Earthx battery by the way, so cranking speed isn’t the issue.
Tinken
Husqvarna
Pro Class
I've had hot start challenges and is one of the reasons which prompted me to invest in a manual choke. But I believe that all these issues are related to fueling. I now believe that the dead throttle issue is due to under population of the upper oem mapping and not a mechanical issue at all.
I believe the dead throttle is the secondary BF not getting the instruction to open once in a while. That is EXACTLY how it feels. Like I just did not open the throttle when I did. Bike does not die, sputter, run odd, nothing just does not act like I opened the throttle. If it is not the BF it is the TPS not getting the message to the ECU / injector. BUT I would think in that condition I would have a pop and stall as I opened the primary BF and no fuel saw delivered, that's not how it feels. It is very intermittent so I don't see how a fuel map would cause this. Something somewhere is simply not getting the signal to do something. As the primarily BF is mechanically opened and the TPS gets signal there, these systems should not be intermittent. On the other hand the secondary BF has no mechanical connection to your wrist and therefor acts independently. It is my believe it just does not function once in a while for some reason. I could be very wrong, only time will tell. I will for sure report if and when I have a dead throttle with the BF removed and this will settle this conversation.
bhuizer
Husqvarna
A Class
Every time a flame-out has happened to me is when I’m coming out of a ditch or whenever I was quick on the throttle to get the front wheel off the ground. Seems as though the FBW butterfly is just slow to react at times. Now on the contrary, I haven’t had a flameout yet after adding the PCV (Zipty Factory Map, 4-5% fuel from 1500-2500 RPM, Idle set at 2000 RPM) so I feel that fuel does play some role in the issue. Not saying my bike is cured, but it definitely did improve it.
Just to be clear a "flame out" and "dead throttle" are two different things. A flameout is a lean stall. A dead throttle does not kill the engine and can happen at any time. It just simply feels like you did not twist the throttle. Bike still runs perfectly, no pop, no stall no running issues other than does not move forward as told to. A flame out will for sure be helped of fixed by proper fueling. The dead throttle to me seems like a different issue. Not everyone has the dead throttle issue. Some have it really bad. Lean flame outs can be experienced on all these bikes especially stock with the ultra lean map.
Dangermouse449
Husqvarna
Pro Class
Listing what I experienced here for reference.
When I had dead throttle issues, I found if I continued to hold the throttle above idle & not let it return, it would remain'dead'. Giving perhaps 50% power, barely enough to climb a short hill I was on the last time it occurred. As it was climbing I rolled the throttle back & forth between full & half with no change in engine power or rough running.
As soon as I closed it to idle & reopened it, power was restored. I was convinced then that the FBW had remained closed, resynced itself when I idled off again & returned to normal.
I also firmly believe too that the reverse is true of the hanging idle.
This happened very frequently, so I got plenty of chances to try different things. If I pulled the clutch, it would drop after a short delay. If I was trying to engine brake down a hill, Pulling in the clutch was sometimes the only way to drop engine revs.
When I had dead throttle issues, I found if I continued to hold the throttle above idle & not let it return, it would remain'dead'. Giving perhaps 50% power, barely enough to climb a short hill I was on the last time it occurred. As it was climbing I rolled the throttle back & forth between full & half with no change in engine power or rough running.
As soon as I closed it to idle & reopened it, power was restored. I was convinced then that the FBW had remained closed, resynced itself when I idled off again & returned to normal.
I also firmly believe too that the reverse is true of the hanging idle.
This happened very frequently, so I got plenty of chances to try different things. If I pulled the clutch, it would drop after a short delay. If I was trying to engine brake down a hill, Pulling in the clutch was sometimes the only way to drop engine revs.
I tend to agree with your theory. Time will tell on the dead throttle, so far so good. Have you had zero dead throttle since your changes? Its a weird thing that it just simply acts like you did nothing but continues to run perfect, then next twist all is good like nothing ever happened. Thats what leads me to believe it is not a fuel issue as there is no popping, change, nothing, just like the cable did not pull the throttle open. It has done it to me many times. I can almost induce it. It happens a lot when I DS (by a lot I mean several times on one big ride). Steady street riding for a spell, then grab a big handful for ripping and wheelie and nothing. Sometimes I think it does it in this instance because I let off a little to load the front to wheelie on rebound but don't drop it all the way to idle and grab a handful. I think the BF is just confused once in a while by this action and does nothing. Just a theory at this point. Once i get a handful of dead throttle free rides I will see it much more as the cause.
Dangermouse449
Husqvarna
Pro Class
Nope, not since the mod.
My own bike wasn't as bad as that, maybe once every few rides, but still very disconcerting.
As I posted elsewhere, I can't see how it will happen with the flap out.
Time will tell for sure as you say.
My own bike wasn't as bad as that, maybe once every few rides, but still very disconcerting.
As I posted elsewhere, I can't see how it will happen with the flap out.
Time will tell for sure as you say.
Interesting
Mine seems to have gotten better over time but still will do it. Sometimes not at all sometimes 2-3 times a ride.
Well it could be the injector not getting the message once in a while but I think there would be a pop and stall then which is why I lean towards the BF theory.
Dangermouse449
Husqvarna
Pro Class
I don't see how it could be the injector, if you had the air needed for the power you asked for & the injector mis-fired, got the wrong signal etc, the fueling would be incorrect for the air & it would run badly, hesitate or miss, pop or something.
We are seeing how much as little as 5 or 10% makes to maps here....
In my instance, running was completely normal (smooth) except for the fact that I had 100% throttle, & only 50% power.
My thoughts anyway.
We are seeing how much as little as 5 or 10% makes to maps here....
In my instance, running was completely normal (smooth) except for the fact that I had 100% throttle, & only 50% power.
My thoughts anyway.
jerbear610
Husqvarna
Pro Class
I think the FI\Tuning-mapping is all subjective on these bikes. We do know that they're definitely finicky. My primary concern has always been flameouts. Power has never been an issue as it has always had more
than enough power for the trails. I've tried all the different maps at some point most recent being the Schoops map which has reaffirmed my theory that what might work great for one bike (same bike, model,year etc..) may not
work great for another given all the little x factors that come in to play such as mods, elevation, atmosphere etc.. For me the best combo for having my 511 run right with the best power has been using the map that Aaron(BHP)
created with his dyno as my basemap with Tinken's ignition map....but running that setup with Auto Tune is what created my own ballistic missle. I'm not sure what to call it but I feel like the AT is probably the smartest map creator
of all.
In regards to Huskylove without question he will know more about his bike than Aaron, I mean the man is an innovator in the motorized bicycle industry(if memory serves) and, like Aaron, is a young business owner so they've got a lot
in common. My advise would be to give BHP a call (916)334-1238 and let him know what you want to do and I'm sure you guys could work together on the dyno. He's a cool guy and it's usually just him and his dog there, occasionally his wife.
I know it's a bit of a drive and I'm not sure if he works weekends. Maybe by appointment. If you do call him tell him Jerry sent ya.
Tinken
Husqvarna
Pro Class
The butterfly does not create a "Pop" or a "stall" which is created by the the air increasing to the point of detonation, not the air getting cut off by a butterfly.
I was simply saying if the throttle was opened and the BF opened and the injector did not get the message it would possibly be lean and have resulting conditions.
On another note I rode my 511 some today, mostly a quick DS ride, zero dead throttle still and for sure better power and response. Zero running or starting issues to report at this time. This mod has been nothing but positive for ME on MY bike.
On another note I rode my 511 some today, mostly a quick DS ride, zero dead throttle still and for sure better power and response. Zero running or starting issues to report at this time. This mod has been nothing but positive for ME on MY bike.