250cc 2T machines back into ama 450 main events

[MotoMarc36]

For the record, Miss Duncan broke her wrist and couldn't race the Hipoint National. it is unclear if she will make the final WMX round at Southwick.

 

[MotoMarc36]

Agreed. They don't have this issue in Europe.

But Oh do they make their own problems. Even with our pesky Homologation rule, we get 80-90 riders per class that must be raced down to the final 40. By contrast, Guiseppe Luongo can't get 40 riders on his gates per class, and has struggled to get 20 at times. We do have it good, but things could be better (or a lot worse!).

 

[robertaccio]

I just LOVE the EMX 125 championship, we should still have 125cc Nats. for kids and young pros stepping up from minis 85 and 100 super minis (99% 2 strokes in classes except CRF150 kids).
Getting them onto full/ big bike size 125 2Ts at the Nat level, then finally onto those pesky/expensive/ 250 4Ts and on to 35-450 4Ts!!!

 

[rancher1]

But Oh do they make their own problems. Even with our pesky Homologation rule, we get 80-90 riders per class that must be raced down to the final 40. By contrast, Guiseppe Luongo can't get 40 riders on his gates per class, and has struggled to get 20 at times. We do have it good, but things could be better (or a lot worse!).

As I understand the Europe thing is related to pay to race, big $$$$. If you can afford it you just might make the main.

 

[huskyfrk]

the numbers quoted do vary, smaller mfg, get a break on the numbers. unless you are husky. anybody remember paul Lima and his attempt to get a husky into a outdoor national, was turned away for no homologation, but the AMA did allow the smr's to run in supermoto, same bike really, just different wheels.. They let KTM slide in flat track by getting them to run a 990 in class C, and i know damn well there weren't 500 superbike KTM's brought over here.... politics is all it really is..

 

[ray_ray]

the numbers quoted do vary, smaller mfg, get a break on the numbers. unless you are husky. anybody remember paul Lima and his attempt to get a husky into a outdoor national, was turned away for no homologation, but the AMA did allow the smr's to run in supermoto, same bike really, just different wheels.. They let KTM slide in flat track by getting them to run a 990 in class C, and i know damn well there weren't 500 superbike KTM's brought over here.... politics is all it really is..

RV2 a couple yrs back, switched to the next yrs model bike in the middle of the race season and they had some reason why he could do it ... Then RD5 started racing the 450 bike and it had never even been sold in the states yet, and that was legal also ...

Then there are always articles where it states the parts the racers (RV2) use, are not available to the general public ... These guys are racing one-off bikes really with a japanese brand sticker on them ... Thats what the rules were suppose to stop from happening I thought ...

 

[Chaz955i]

RV2 a couple yrs back, switched to the next yrs model bike in the middle of the race season and they had some reason why he could do it ... Then RD5 started racing the 450 bike and it had never even been sold in the states yet, and that was legal also ...

Then there are always articles where it states the parts the racers (RV2) use, are not available to the general public ... These guys are racing one-off bikes really with a japanese brand sticker on them ... Thats what the rules were suppose to stop from happening I thought ...

The application of the rules might be spotty but nothing happening now compares to the early to mid 80's when the works bikes shared nothing but color with production bikes. Google the 1984 or 1985 Honda RC racebikes. They were insane compared to the production bikes. Things are much more even now. Sattelite teams like Millsaps is on had little chance of success prior to the production rule. MotoGP is currently similar to motocross prior to 1986. Top riders on prototypes and everybody else on production based bikes.

 

[TemecuCoastie]

AMA really needs to make a adjustments somehow to get more machines to the gate. (Ive been saying that for a long time).

They don't have these issues in Europe, right? I've seen a few TM's in some GP lineups. Didn't Ricci partner w/TM this year?

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PD1T7ivIzM

 

[rockdancer]

This is a great video of Antoine Meo in a Pro Race on a 125
He cathes up to his his mate on a Husky near the end - and the mate thinks no way is he passing me on a 125!!!

looking at the 125 MX in Europe I think there only 1 Husqvarna in the whole line up

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ryie05A6G0

 

[ray_ray]

This is a great video of Antoine Meo in a Pro Race on a 125
He cathes up to his his mate on a Husky near the end - and the mate thinks no way is he passing me on a 125!!!

looking at the 125 MX in Europe I think there only 1 Husqvarna in the whole line up

Wowie zowie boys and girls ... That 125 2t machine was running right with those over-glorified 250 4t devices ... Myth busted I'd say and about time.

Thanks for enlightening so many with that posting ..

 

[Vinduro]

Yeah, 250 2T with the 250 4T and 350 2T with 450 4T.

Long ago I figured that the handicap for 4 strokes should have been 40%. 125 cc X 1.4 = 175cc. 250cc X 1.4 = 350cc . It should have NEVER been twice the displacement. And in the Open Class you should be allowed any size engine over 300cc. 2 or 4 stroke , your choice. I personally believe that a 300cc 2 stroke is all the displacement that a 2 stroke needs. 500 to 600cc for a 4 stroke. BUT, allow any displacement that they want.

 

[Kyle Tarry]

Wowie zowie boys and girls ... That 125 2t machine was running right with those over-glorified 250 4t devices ... Myth busted I'd say and about time.

125 2-strokes are not as fast as 250 4-strokes. It's not a myth, it's a fact. Double the displacement gives them an insurmountable advantage.

 

[R-J van Hulst]

125 2-strokes are not as fast as 250 4-strokes. It's not a myth, it's a fact. Double the displacement gives them an insurmountable advantage.

In the hands of who?

A weekend warrior is most likely faster on a 125 2 stroke When he masters to keep the momentum going

A pro racer could get the max out of a 250 4 stroke and the way the circuits are build now these days it suits the 4 stroke more, it would be the favorite for the win

If we go back to the old style circuits and/or the sand circuits the pro racer would be better off on a 2 stroke

Robert-Jan

 

[Kyle Tarry]

The power on a 125 2-stroke is way harder to manage than the power on a 250 4-stroke. If anything, a weekend warrior is going to be better off on a 4-stroke that he doesn't need to worry about keeping "on the pipe" all the time.

I'm not an anti-2-stroke guy; in fact, I like 2-strokes more than 4-strokes (my woods/race bike is a 2 stroke). However, with double displacement, they can't compete. It's just physics. 2X the displacement gives a HUGE power advantage to 4-strokes, and the weight difference is not significant enough to compensate.

 

[ray_ray]

It's just physics. 2X the displacement gives a HUGE power advantage to 4-strokes, and the weight difference is not significant enough to compensate.

Feel free to walk up to the white board and lets see your physics ... Or, please stay out of Einsteins world ...

The first ama race of this yr, a female rider on a 125cc machine whipped every 250 4t machine in not one moto, but both motos of the day ... Can you imagine being in the pits of all the 250cc 4t people that got blown away ... What could they say when reality B-slaps you like that?

Please add how this happened to your white board, physics talk also ...

Long ago I figured that the handicap for 4 strokes should have been 40%. 125 cc X 1.4 = 175cc. 250cc X 1.4 = 350cc . It should have NEVER been twice the displacement. And in the Open Class you should be allowed any size engine over 300cc. 2 or 4 stroke , your choice. I personally believe that a 300cc 2 stroke is all the displacement that a 2 stroke needs. 500 to 600cc for a 4 stroke. BUT, allow any displacement that they want.

Sounds good and reasonable to me , ESP on the 300 2t being enough ... No real numbers here, but I bet there was more than 1 500cc 2t world championship won on ~360cc sized machines ...Mikkola was on a Husky 360cc machine when he whipped DeCoster for 1 championship I read once.


--
I still think, until proven wrong by a real race, that 250 2t machines are still very close to 4t 450 machines ... The 250 has got to have a top rider on board and I'm not saying it will blown every 450 off the track like the 350cc 4t did to the 450s , but it will not finish last and be out classed ...

Cigarettes don't cause cancer and Madoff acted alone ... A couple more items I'm sure many believe...350s 4t can't run with 450s 4t, right? Reality is a tough thing to deal with for so many. Maybe fiction just sells better than non-fiction?

Has anyone made The Leap yet on 250cc 4t machine? This is the Stew we all still believe in on a 125 machine, front wheel high, going over The Leap.


EDIT: I still remember RC4 saying he thought the 2t machines had a slight advantage on 4t machines in sx racing when the 2t was just starting to be pushed down by the JAP companies ... But what does he know ...

 

[Kyle Tarry]

Feel free to walk up to the white board and lets see your physics ... Or, please stay out of Einsteins world ...

Please add how this happened to your white board, physics talk also ...

Why do you need to have such a bad attitude, especially towards other CH members? I've been a member here for a while, and this is far from an isolated incident. There is no reason to be patronizing.

With regard to the physics:

The advantage in power under the curve, and power availability, is really hard to beat. The 2ts do have a weight/flickability advantage (one of many reasons I prefer them int he woods), but it would take more than that to overcome the 10-30% advantage in area under the curve.

The first ama race of this yr, a female rider on a 125cc machine whipped every 250 4t machine in not one moto, but both motos of the day ... Can you imagine being in the pits of all the 250cc 4t people that got blown away ... What could they say when reality B-slaps you like that?

One isolated race doesn't prove anything, except that she is a great rider. I don't know the exact results of that race, so I also don't know the exact caliber of all the other people she raced. Scott Summers won a bunch of GNCCs on 650 4-strokes; does this mean that a 650 is a better bike choice for a GNCC than a 450 4-stroke or a 300 2-stroke? Certainly doubtful!

Sounds good and reasonable to me

Vinduro basically agreed with my point when he said that the displacement "bump" for 4-strokes should be only 40%; why does it sound "good and reasonable to you" when he says it, but when I say it you make a bunch of vague patronizing comments about white boards and Einstein?

EDIT: I still remember RC4 saying he thought the 2t machines had a slight advantage on 4t machines in sx racing when the 2t was just starting to be pushed down by the JAP companies ... But what does he know ...

This is a vague memory of an anecdote of one particular time for one particular rider. MAYBE it means that, at that time, he felt more comfortable and/or faster on the bikes he grew up racing.

 

[Kyle Tarry]

Has anyone made The Leap yet on 250cc 4t machine? This is the Stew we all still believe in on a 125 machine, front wheel high, going over The Leap.
View attachment 29690

I didn't even know what "the leap" was, but about 20 seconds on Google and I discovered that Blake Bagget did it over a year ago on a 250f.

View: http://youtu.be/9N59IUJGxVM


Also, here's a TT thread about guys doing it on 250f in 2009 (videos are dead though): http://www.thumpertalk.com/topic/511610-250fs-doing-larrocos-leap-at-redbud-vid/

Note that most guys scrub most jumps, so whether or not they do it may not be straightforward.

 

[ray_ray]

Thanks for the dyno pics but I'm not sure that is physics ....Physics is a very powerful word and most of us are not even aware of it as it unfolds ... So I thought there might be some real physics that proves these bike types are not equal ....

The Leap stuff sounds good also ... After seeing 2 real races between the different types bike and the 125s doing well, not doing the leap on a 250 4t would look really bad also for these hyped bike.

--
I just saw the word physics in one reply ... No connection with this word and the other that included math at 40% and you using the double word ...

125 2-strokes are not as fast as 250 4-strokes. It's not a myth, it's a fact. Double the displacement gives them an insurmountable advantage.

--
RC4 said that quit a few yrs ago also ... I'm sure the 4t are even better now and the 2t are the same, but regardless, he might have been a skeptic also ...

 

[Kyle Tarry]

Thanks for the dyno pics but I'm not sure that is physics ....Physics is a very powerful word and most of us are not even aware of it as it unfolds ... So I thought there might be some real physics that proves these bike types are not equal ....

Power is what makes a bike "go." That is physics. More power = more go faster. That's "real physics." I'm not sure what else you are looking for. We can do this with calculus too, but there isn't really any reason to.

The 250 4-strokes have WAY more power available than the 125 2ts do, and the weight is very similar. That's an insurmountable physics advantage in any situation where power is the limiting factor on lap speed (all else, like suspension, rider, tires, etc being equal, which they are here).

I just saw the word physics in one reply ... No connection with this word and the other that included math at 40% and you using the double word ...

I have no idea what this sentence means.

I'm not anti 2-stroke. In fact, I am pro-2-stroke. The problem is that, with the rules the way they are now, they can't compete. I would like to see a rule change, like Vinduro mentioned, that makes it "fair" or "equal" so that the 2-strokes can compete. Give the riders and manufacturers and teams some more options. Until then, however, it's an uphill battle for the ring-dings under the current rules.

 

[robertaccio]

all the talk....fact is if the less funded teams knew they could win on a cheaper/easier bike to maintain (2T) I know what bike my team guy would be riding.
Back to bigs, Cairoli on a KTM250SX ......fun to watch but Desalle and his RMZ would beat him at almost every round (crashes would be the exception).
AMA top tier you want to get the racing more close put the Ryans on 2T machines.....Alessi may pull a win along with Stew (may need to put him on a 2T as well) and some others.
now for my final closing comments (IMHO).
Lap times are the final answer here. lap times are the bottom line in all closed course racing. all the dyno/g force/torque graph......really means nothing if the guy up front is turning faster lap times than everyone else. Think only KTM and Yamaha they are 2 brands at the Lucas oil AMA nats that have current model 2T machines, if Ryan D turned faster lap times on his 250SX which bike would the team go with......?. Same for the Yamaha riders, Gibbs racings Coy G would send out his guys on the fastest bike around the track and save tons of R&D cash if it was the YZ.