2013 Txc310r Won't E-start Or Kick (yes, I've Searched... A Lot)

[benny_mech]

Thanks glanston, I should have started there and did not. Good reminder to always check grounds. In my case they weren't corroded, but I tested and cleaned them anyways. The bike now starts reliably even though temps are hovering around freezing. I really have no idea why. Maybe the TPS adjustment helped, but I don't think that was the magic bullet.

 

[Trenchcoat85]

Thanks glanston, I should have started there and did not. Good reminder to always check grounds. In my case they weren't corroded, but I tested and cleaned them anyways. The bike now starts reliably even though temps are hovering around freezing. I really have no idea why. Maybe the TPS adjustment helped, but I don't think that was the magic bullet.

you don't think it was the ground?

 

[benny_mech]

I tested it with an Ohmmeter before doing anything, and the resistance was really low. It's possible that I did a bunch of things that all made a small difference.

 

[Trenchcoat85]

I tested it with an Ohmmeter before doing anything, and the resistance was really low. It's possible that I did a bunch of things that all made a small difference.

perhaps.

but the resistance of the ground cable from the battery to the lug on the starter (IIRC) should be so low that your normal meter couldn't even tell the difference between the resistance of the leads tied together or the leads through the ground cable. Your workaday digital meter will read 0.2-0.6 ohms or thereabouts, just through the leads only.

hit the connections with dielectric grease, vasoline or wd40 (in order of preference) after cleaning the connection up and before tightening them up.

sounds like you got it. Props to glangston- great suggestion.

 

[benny_mech]

I used Oxguard on the ground connection. I generally use dielectric grease on multi pin connectors.

Thanks for your help in troubleshooting this!

 

[R_Little]

I got a heavy duty bat to starter lead from a guy on this forum.

 

[benny_mech]

Update on this, the starting is still hit/miss. Took it for a real ride yesterday (had enough of work), and sometimes it would fire right up, and sometimes didn't want to start even with the kicker. Seemed to help if I held the throttle open just a tiny bit, so I'm wondering if adjusting the TPS a bit more will help. I also plan to get a Shorai battery, as it seems they have more cranking amps than the lead acid ones I've got.

 

[Trenchcoat85]

I used Oxguard on the ground connection. I generally use dielectric grease on multi pin connectors.

Thanks for your help in troubleshooting this!

you're welcome.

And you're probably ok using Ox-Gard on a single connection (wipe it good afterwards)... but, like you say, it's definitely best to use dielectric grease on multiple pins. And keep the ox-gard away from a spark plug or any high voltage; it is more conductive than anti-seize, IIRC.

Actually, ox-gard is dielectric grease mixed with zinc dust. It is used in aluminum connections (especially with dissimilar metals) to reduce galvanic corrosion, and increase conductivity. I believe the zinc is acting as a sacrificial anode; it definitely is also acting as a parallel conductor.

Anti-seize is basically the same stuff- maybe some aluminum, magnesium, or copper dust thrown in there, too. Again: maybe.

most people have a hard time wrapping their heads around dielectric grease's lack of conductivity. It seems counter-intuitive to add an "insulator" to an electrical connection. What's really happening is that the grease is filling voids that would've existed anyways, but now leaving no space for oxygen or moisture. You are not adding any measurable resistance. Hell, air has about the same dielectric constant as grease- it just contains oxygen and water, both which are bad for metal electrical connections.

 

[R_Little]

you're welcome.

And you're probably ok using Ox-Gard on a single connection (wipe it good afterwards)... but, like you say, it's definitely best to use dielectric grease on multiple pins. And keep the ox-gard away from a spark plug or any high voltage; it is more conductive than anti-seize, IIRC.

Actually, ox-gard is dielectric grease mixed with zinc dust. It is used in aluminum connections (especially with dissimilar metals) to reduce galvanic corrosion, and increase conductivity. I believe the zinc is acting as a sacrificial anode; it definitely is also acting as a parallel conductor.

Anti-seize is basically the same stuff- maybe some aluminum, magnesium, or copper dust thrown in there, too. Again: maybe.

most people have a hard time wrapping their heads around dielectric grease's lack of conductivity. It seems counter-intuitive to add an "insulator" to an electrical connection. What's really happening is that the grease is filling voids that would've existed anyways, but now leaving no space for oxygen or moisture. You are not adding any measurable resistance. Hell, air has about the same dielectric constant as grease- it just contains oxygen and water, both which are bad for metal electrical connections.

Thanks for the explanation. i am "that guy" who has a hard time wrapping his head around di-electric grease. What does the prefix Di in di-electric actually mean?

 

[Trenchcoat85]

Thanks for the explanation. i am "that guy" who has a hard time wrapping his head around di-electric grease. What does the prefix Di in di-electric actually mean?

I thought it meant "two" as in 2 surfaces separated by an insulator. I was wrong:

wiki-
The term "dielectric" was coined by William Whewell (from "dia-electric") in response to a request from Michael Faraday.[5][6] A perfect dielectric is a material with zero electrical conductivity (cf. perfect conductor),[7] thus exhibiting only a displacement current; therefore it stores and returns electrical energy as if it were an ideal capacitor.

DIA- From Ancient Greek prefix δια- (dia-), from διά (diá, “through, across, by, over”)

One of Whewell's greatest gifts to science was his wordsmithing. He often corresponded with many in his field and helped them come up with new terms for their discoveries. Whewell contributed the terms scientist, physicist, linguistics, consilience, catastrophism, uniformitarianism, and astigmatism[1] amongst others; Whewell suggested the terms electrode, ion, dielectric, anode, and cathode to Michael Faraday.[2]

wow- Michael Faraday (farads, charge over area, capacitor aka condenser). I read up on this Whewell guy (never heard of him to be honest) and I was impressed.

But the big takeaway is that the grease is replacing another insulator (air) that has bad characteristics

 

[R_Little]

"I thought it meant "two" as in 2 surfaces separated by an insulator. I was wrong:"

Me too, but it did not really make sense. Now I consider myself educated. BTW, I have no idea why this would interest me.
I am a CPA in private industry. I have to real no real economic nor professional interest in this stuff.
I do come from a long line of mechanical and electrical engineers but it is not my field of expertise.

I guess I just like to know stuff.

 

[R_Little]

you're welcome.

And you're probably ok using Ox-Gard on a single connection (wipe it good afterwards)... but, like you say, it's definitely best to use dielectric grease on multiple pins. And keep the ox-gard away from a spark plug or any high voltage; it is more conductive than anti-seize, IIRC.

Actually, ox-gard is dielectric grease mixed with zinc dust. It is used in aluminum connections (especially with dissimilar metals) to reduce galvanic corrosion, and increase conductivity. I believe the zinc is acting as a sacrificial anode; it definitely is also acting as a parallel conductor.

Anti-seize is basically the same stuff- maybe some aluminum, magnesium, or copper dust thrown in there, too. Again: maybe.

most people have a hard time wrapping their heads around dielectric grease's lack of conductivity. It seems counter-intuitive to add an "insulator" to an electrical connection. What's really happening is that the grease is filling voids that would've existed anyways, but now leaving no space for oxygen or moisture. You are not adding any measurable resistance. Hell, air has about the same dielectric constant as grease- it just contains oxygen and water, both which are bad for metal electrical connections.

May I ask another question?

Is the zinc dust in Ox-Gard a sacrificial anode, taking the place of the corrosion that would otherwise occur on the base metal of the dissimilar connections?

 

[Trenchcoat85]

May I ask another question?

Is the zinc dust in Ox-Gard a sacrificial anode, taking the place of the corrosion that would otherwise occur on the base metal of the dissimilar connections?

In this case l think it is acting as parallel conductors since aluminum itself is one of the common anodes.

I believe Ox-Gard is used for aluminum wiring connections, mainly. Aluminum is a fantastic electrical conductor (better than copper? crs) but has the unfortunate characteristic of oxidizing quickly. This layer of aluminum oxide insulates it from further oxygen exposure (good) but it also is an electrical insulator (bad, in wiring). As current passes through an oxidized aluminum connection, it encounters the resistance of the oxide layer and dissipates energy in the form of heat (very bad).

I think- but do not know, that the ox-gard is doing two main things: the dielectric grease is keeping the air out (i.e. oxygen, water), and the zinc is acting as more conductors, maybe cutting through the microscopically thin layer of any existing aluminum oxide to get to the base metal.

maybe.

I'm not a galvanic corrosion expert (I bet the Navy is, or off-shore well drillers) or a aluminum wiring expert (mostly used in hi-voltage transmission lines, and houses in the '70s- now mostly burnt down . jk) but I'd guess ox-gard could be used as adequate anti-seize on dissimilar metals. Not what is was designed for afaik.

 

[R_Little]

See all the interesting stuff you learn at the Cafe?

 

[ct cr430]

Copper is a better conductor than aluminum . Just look at telephone cables , other than fiber optic they are all made from single conductor copper wire . Aluminum cables were tried at one time but the cables had to be substantially larger to be comparable plus after lightning storms there would be aluminum missing in the cables .

 

[benny_mech]

After futzing around with the TPS sensor, and still not super happy with the bike's starting, I tore into the fuel system. It has the exact same fuel pump and filter as my 2008 KTM 690 Enduro, and those pumps are known to be failure prone. I'm guessing it has more to do with how the bikes are used (more miles, higher speeds) vs. the dirt bikes, than the pump itself. I replaced the pump in the 690 as a preventative measure, and noticed that the newer gen 690's use a larger fuel filter, Mahle KL97, vs the original KL 15. The fuel hose on both bikes necks down from 8mm to 6mm or so to pass through the small filter, and then goes back to 8mm. I ordered up two KL97 filters, and four pieces of 8mm through fuel hose from CA Cycleworks, to put both bikes back together and hopefully reduce flow restrictions in the fuel systems. I'm hoping this will also help with the poor off idle performance of the motor. I'll report back with findings. Also going to dial in the suspension valving while it's all apart. Yes, my garage is a disaster. It's always like this.

 

[Trenchcoat85]

After futzing around with the TPS sensor, and still not super happy with the bike's starting, I tore into the fuel system. It has the exact same fuel pump and filter as my 2008 KTM 690 Enduro, and those pumps are known to be failure prone. I'm guessing it has more to do with how the bikes are used (more miles, higher speeds) vs. the dirt bikes, than the pump itself. I replaced the pump in the 690 as a preventative measure, and noticed that the newer gen 690's use a larger fuel filter, Mahle KL97, vs the original KL 15. The fuel hose on both bikes necks down from 8mm to 6mm or so to pass through the small filter, and then goes back to 8mm. I ordered up two KL97 filters, and four pieces of 8mm through fuel hose from CA Cycleworks, to put both bikes back together and hopefully reduce flow restrictions in the fuel systems. I'm hoping this will also help with the poor off idle performance of the motor. I'll report back with findings. Also going to dial in the suspension valving while it's all apart. Yes, my garage is a disaster. It's always like this.

hey Benny- it seems you have a bike that will start fairly consistently now. Can you describe what problem(s) exactly you're trying to solve?

I advocate (constantly ) for using starting fluid to isolate any fueling problems. super easy and accurate. It only falls short on the very rare over-fueling situation (e.g., injector pintel stuck open by contaminants).

 

[Trenchcoat85]

After futzing around with the TPS sensor, and still not super happy with the bike's starting, I tore into the fuel system. It has the exact same fuel pump and filter as my 2008 KTM 690 Enduro, and those pumps are known to be failure prone. I'm guessing it has more to do with how the bikes are used (more miles, higher speeds) vs. the dirt bikes, than the pump itself. I replaced the pump in the 690 as a preventative measure, and noticed that the newer gen 690's use a larger fuel filter, Mahle KL97, vs the original KL 15. The fuel hose on both bikes necks down from 8mm to 6mm or so to pass through the small filter, and then goes back to 8mm. I ordered up two KL97 filters, and four pieces of 8mm through fuel hose from CA Cycleworks, to put both bikes back together and hopefully reduce flow restrictions in the fuel systems. I'm hoping this will also help with the poor off idle performance of the motor. I'll report back with findings. Also going to dial in the suspension valving while it's all apart. Yes, my garage is a disaster. It's always like this.

couple of comments:
Yes, the fuel pumps on a couple of ktm models are the same (your husky may even have a ktm part number on the inside pump flange). and you can even buy some individual part$/a$$emblie$ from ktm... unlike husky IIRC. I have never liked the design of this system, but I understand the reason for the change from the aluminum plate design (which is less real estate, i believe; plus the easier ability to design the pump into the low part of the tank). This setup does seem to be more reliable to me though- admittedly using a small sample.

but the implication that you're having flow problems is a bit mystifying. your husky fuel system is over designed for a small engine- I bet it could run 5 690's simultaneously without breathing hard.

sounds like you understand that the KL97 is 8mm at both ends (much better IMO because of the hose size consistency... NOT for flow reason).

I believe the husky/ktm system uses the KL15 with the 6mm inlet end and the 8mm outlet end only for fitment reasons: to keep owners and mechanics from putting in the filter backwards, or other stupid-human tricks [edit: aluminum flange pumps have the 6mm & 8mm fittings, not the 4 bolt plastic flange pumps]. This is a terrible reason to go through the hand-waving of getting a specially made hose to fit on the 8mm pump outlet and the 6mm filter inlet. All the other plumbing is 8mm (5/16"). And for folks who haven't seen this system: there's about 4' of corrugated $ubmersible hose, 10 internal hose connections, and usually only 3 ear-type hose clamps. sheesh.

Also, I'd guess that the majority of particulates the filter catches are carbon graphite from the pump brushes- fairly harmless to engines but, admittedly though, can clog injectors. I believe that the KL15 & KL97 are 10 micron filters. Also, I might back-flush the filter if I had it out for any reason, especially if it was carbon black; OTOH screwing with those weird submersible hoses is a major drag in my limited experience.

I seriously doubt you have a flow problem, especially if you don't have a pressure problem.

When you get the CA Cycleworks stuff give us a couple of pictures before & after your install. from what i've seen their stuff is good; their hose prices are fantastic.

good luck.

edit: oh yeah... use worm-drive hose clamps, spring hose clamps, or even wire if you want; the ear clamps are nice but hard to reuse (but not impossible). I have an official Oetiker tool (made in Canada ) but use nips 90% of the time on ear clamps.

 

[benny_mech]

Symptoms are hard starting, requiring some throttle input to get the bike to catch and run. The mysterious part is that it's hit and miss, and I can't say why. I've adjusted the TPS as far as I can, which seemed to help. When the bike was newer it didn't need any throttle input to start. Also, it stumbles at very small throttle angles. It could be a lot of things, and I'm screwing with the fuel system mainly because I'm doing the same on my 690 and it's easier to order extra odds and ends all at once. It tends to flame out quite a bit at off idle conditions, even though it pulls like a freight train at mid and upper RPM. I know every bike has limitations, but it seems like there's room for improvement.

Do you know if anyone has a tuned map for the ECU that helps the TXC? I'm told the TE's benefit from a TXC 12 port injector and ECU.

Yes, the fuel pump housing has the same part number as the KTM one, minus the "KTM" in front of it.

I think you're correct about the full flow potential of the system. When I tested it initially there was a firehose of fuel coming out (12V wired directly to pump and injector), which is why I didn't dig into the fuel system initially. What I'm starting to wonder about is how well the system flows at the lower end of the range of the injector pulse width. I'm going to have the injector cleaned while it's all apart as well, just in case. I'm told even the newer KTM's and Husky's benefit from a reduction in fuel flow resistance at low RPM and throttle positions. (https://www.ktmandhusky.com/fuel-rail-for-12-16-exc-xcwf-fe-fe-) At this point it's more of an experiment to see if the bike runs better or not.

The KL97 is 8mm on both ends, and the KL15 is 6mm on both ends. All I know is that KTM changed the 690's over from the KL15 to the KL97 at some point. I don't know what the reasons were, but it's cheap and easy to change the filter, which is a maintenance item anyways, and $10 worth of hoses just to see what happens.

The CA Cycleworks pump looks just like the OEM pump, except the body is a different color, and it says "made in China" instead of "made in Czech."

 

[benny_mech]

Of course the real issue is that I can't leave anything alone, and I sold my project cars years ago. Now I don't have anything to tinker with except the dirt bikes. It's either this or hot rodding the lawnmower.