2013 TE449, clutch "drag"

[Padowan]

Could you got a different clutch lever that displaces a slightly larger volume of fluid, that should disengage the clutch further i would think... Can't suggest a model of lever, but in theory i would think that would help.

 

[Mike Dan]

I bought the only aftermarket levers I could find for this bike. They are ARC and have more travel adjustment than stock. It didn't help at all. Nice levers though.

 

[Padowan]

I'm not talking about just the lever, I'm talking about the whole clutch master cylinder. If the original matter cylinder has a bore of say, 9mm then it will displace a certain amount of fluid and move the slave cylinder (clutch actuator)a certain amount for a given lever travel. If you replaced the master cylinder with something with say a 9.5 or 10mm for the sale lever travel and piston stroke you would displace more fluid and therefore move the slave cylinder further, which should disengage the clutch more.

 

[Dangermouse449]

EFM does make an auto clutch for the Kymco engine though. Its a common install for the G450s and the 449/511s. However the lever and manual override of the Clutch is no longer able to be used. So several people who have done this have used the 449/511s Hydraulic clutch lever as a master cylinder to make it into a LHRB.

I haven't heard good things about the EFM clutch

 

[Dangermouse449]

Never did find a solution on mine. I just deal with it.

Wrapping the engine pipe can help.
You mentioned DOT 5 fluid, I assume you meant 5.1 as 5 is not compatible with the seals and hoses.
5.1 should offer higher heat protection.
Not sure why you would want to ignore the lower gear and prefer slipping the clutch instead, but it will certainly add to the issues you are having.
I run my TE449 in some pretty ugly terrain, not afraid of 1st gear, but my clutch still gets a workout.
One point of difference is I run a proper dedicated motorcycle engine oil with the MA2 rating and have done since new. My clutch is now 320hrs old, never been opened. Castrol 5w40 full synthetic, it's called Power 1 here in Australia, but has another name in the US.

 

[Mike Dan]

The main reason I'm running second and clutching it is, I'm still having some flameouts and surging at certain rpms. It is difficult to be smooth enough with the throttle to roll first gear, plus the tight stuff I'm talking about is super challenging. The trail goes through a 3 mile maze of pine trees that are planted very close together, sometimes too narrow for the bars. I do manage to ride fast enough to roll second most of the time. This particular dual sport ride is 80 miles with 80% woods, fields, pine groves, tractor paths, etc. and 20% blacktop. The stock gearing has been fine for four years of his event. There are at least 150 riders every year. When you are in front of 100 riders on single track, you don't want to stall. Chopping the throttle in first seems to make it stall most frequently. I bought the JD fuel tuner this year, but haven't ridden enough tight stuff to tune it properly. I had BMW map 3 flashed in 2014. The flameouts are way less frequent, but I have more tuning to do. The clutch drag is still a problem too. It's difficult to back up in gear and to find neutral when stopped.
Oh yeah, I am using 5.1 brake fluid and Mobil1 full synthetic motorcycle specific 10w40. I plan to try 0w40 or 5w40 though.

 

[Trenchcoat85]

The main reason I'm running second and clutching it is, I'm still having some flameouts and surging at certain rpms. It is difficult to be smooth enough with the throttle to roll first gear, plus the tight stuff I'm talking about is super challenging. The trail goes through a 3 mile maze of pine trees that are planted very close together, sometimes too narrow for the bars. I do manage to ride fast enough to roll second most of the time. This particular dual sport ride is 80 miles with 80% woods, fields, pine groves, tractor paths, etc. and 20% blacktop. The stock gearing has been fine for four years of his event. There are at least 150 riders every year. When you are in front of 100 riders on single track, you don't want to stall. Chopping the throttle in first seems to make it stall most frequently. I bought the JD fuel tuner this year, but haven't ridden enough tight stuff to tune it properly. I had BMW map 3 flashed in 2014. The flameouts are way less frequent, but I have more tuning to do. The clutch drag is still a problem too. It's difficult to back up in gear and to find neutral when stopped.
Oh yeah, I am using 5.1 brake fluid and Mobil1 full synthetic motorcycle specific 10w40. I plan to try 0w40 or 5w40 though.

I'm not sure your reasoning here is the right way to go.

you are basically chopping the throttle when in first gear; but when you're in second you are probably pulling the clutch in (because otherwise you'd stall even faster if the speeds are the same) to maintain a slower speed.

Just do that in first... instead of chopping the throttle.

My son's 511 is insanely sensitive with the throttle- but it doesn't bother him a bit. When I ride it, just the shaking and vibration cause my arm to move, which results in minor throttle changes. bugs the hell out of me.

 

[Mike Dan]

I'm still sorting out the JD tuner, so I have been experiencing surging when the low throttle input switches to the mid range. I was avoiding that throttle position. Riding in second worked to eliminate the surge during this ride. I've tried setting low and mid range the same, but that didn't help. I will keep working with the tuner, the TPS reset and voltage adjustment at idle, and whatever else it takes to stop the flameouts and surging issues. I really didn't want to get into these problems in this thread, since there is a lot of info in other threads. I only wanted some input on solving the clutch dragging problem.
An EFM auto clutch might be nice, but I'm just not willing to spend $700 on it right now.
I've been trying to source a clutch master cylinder that displaces more fluid. The stock Brembo unit has a 10mm piston. I have found Maguras with 11mm pistons, new for $270. I'm cheap, so I'm looking for something used from another dirt bike. I just haven't found one larger than 10mm yet. Does anyone happen to know a particular bike that uses an 11mm master cylinder piston? I'm really wishing Husky had built in more adjustability in the clutch system.

 

[Huskynoobee]

I messed around with JD for about 1.5 years. The PC5 was a HUGE improvement. I couldn't get it smooth either with the JD. The PC5 has the ability to advance timing and woke it right up with the low RPM lugging and transition to midrange far improved. Loading the Akro map, AKA Map 3 is not an option for 2011 bikes with the HST.

Having said all that with the fairly recent introduction of TuneECU, I would certainly try that route first today. I much prefer mapping the ECU to run well over adding a piggyback fueler. I run 3 different gearing combinations to suit the conditions from tight extreme to wide open dual sport and having the proper fueling allows me to run any of them.

 

[Dangermouse449]

Bin the JD tuner.
Set yourself up for the TuneEcu app on Android ($10 or so) get the required cables and adapters and then you have full mapping control inside the factory ecu similar to PC5.
You can also load Map 3 from the data base we shared with the developers.

If you haven't already, set the idle TPS voltage to 0.75v.
Remove the idle cam roller and set your idle speed at 2100 via the brass idle screw. (this will ensure stable idle)
Removing the second butterfly also helps stalling on a cracked throttle and greatly improves response.
(attached is a video showing the delay between requested air and the second throttle'response)


I ride only single track in the type of terrain you described, I don't have any stalling or flameouts, I use all gears, first a lot. These are the things that cured my bike after over a year of trips to the dealer trying to sort it.

View: https://youtu.be/7Vn_9JxDOz8

 

[Mike Dan]

Bin the JD tuner.
Set yourself up for the TuneEcu app on Android ($10 or so) get the required cables and adapters and then you have full mapping control inside the factory ecu similar to PC5.
You can also load Map 3 from the data base we shared with the developers.

If you haven't already, set the idle TPS voltage to 0.75v.
Remove the idle cam roller and set your idle speed at 2100 via the brass idle screw. (this will ensure stable idle)
Removing the second butterfly also helps stalling on a cracked throttle and greatly improves response.
(attached is a video showing the delay between requested air and the second throttle'response)


I ride only single track in the type of terrain you described, I don't have any stalling or flameouts, I use all gears, first a lot. These are the things that cured my bike after over a year of trips to the dealer trying to sort it.

View: https://youtu.be/7Vn_9JxDOz8

Dangermouse,

I have modified my TE449 to gain power and ride ability.

FMF slip on
ECU flashed with BMW map3 by Zipty
2nd throttle butterfly delete and cam roller removed
Idle adjusted to approx 1600rpm
TPS slightly advanced
Homemade Crankcase breather relocation to top of cylinder and added drain tube from air box to skid plate

These mods helped a lot, but I was still experiencing flameouts on technical trails when the engine gets hot. Now I've bought the JD tuner which adds more power in the low and mid range, especially. I'm still working with it, trying to smooth out surging at constant throttle input at obout 1/16th open. Ever since I bought this bike, I have been adapting my riding to compensate for some condition with the fuel injection. Lugging the bike or overreving is my current work around to avoid surging. Now that you mentioned TuneECU, I have been reading their website. It looks promising, but their site only offers two maps for the TE449. Stock and Akropovic. I believe the Akropovic map is the same or close to what I have now. I'm guessing I could start from there and make minor changes, unless there are other folks sharing their maps??? I really appreciate your suggestions. This forum has helped me make my bike much more fun to ride.

 

[Dangermouse449]

I meant to elaborate on the JD comment, but got away from it and didn't come back.
The JD only adjusts large areas of the fuelling in patches.
It's a pretty course tool to be trying to target one area.
The TuneEcu does only have the Akro maps as loaded into your ecu as complete maps files, however, you can adjust individual fuel and ignition cells within any map to target a specific area (Like the partial load light throttle area you mention.... Same on my bike incidentally)

Something that may help a lot is raising the idle speed to the correct level or a little higher.
Book idle speed is 1950rpm, not 1600.
I have mine around 2050-2100rpm and have almost no stalls even in technical single tracks.
You can still stall the engine, but it never coughs and stops on requesting power as it did when new.

Now that my 449 is not my primary bike (I've bought a Sherco 300 4t) I plan to fiddle around with the mapping and hopefully get a nice map to share with others down the track a bit.

 

[Dangermouse449]

Another thing to consider with the 449-511 models is that the clutch is on the end of the crankshaft, not at the input to the gearbox like most other bikes.
What that means is that when you pull the clutch in, you effectively loose some flywheel weight from the crank.
At low rpm, it can mean the difference between a stall or not....
Raising the idle gives the crank more inertia to carry to the next power stroke without the weight of the Clutch.

 

[rancher1]

I messed around with JD for about 1.5 years. The PC5 was a HUGE improvement. I couldn't get it smooth either with the JD. The PC5 has the ability to advance timing and woke it right up with the low RPM lugging and transition to midrange far improved. Loading the Akro map, AKA Map 3 is not an option for 2011 bikes with the HST.

Having said all that with the fairly recent introduction of TuneECU, I would certainly try that route first today. I much prefer mapping the ECU to run well over adding a piggyback fueler. I run 3 different gearing combinations to suit the conditions from tight extreme to wide open dual sport and having the proper fueling allows me to run any of them.

You can load map 3 on the 2011 511, just the 2011 449 ECU is locked.

 

[Dangermouse449]

2011 TE449 ecu is able to be loaded with Map 3.
I was able to load my own bike using the HST system.
You can now also load them using the TuneEcu app for Android

 

[rancher1]

The ECU on the US models is locked.

 

[Dangermouse449]

Sucks to be them then....
Probably still worth a try on the TuneEcu system...

 

[Huskynoobee]

It DOES suck to be us! That's why I went with the Power Commander. I used my richer map this last weekend riding slow in 100°-109°F working on race course. It only stalled a couple of times when the going got super technical. I probably should have thrown the off road wheel on with the better gearing. There's no way I could have done it without the PCV.

 

[domrvt]

Has anyone used TuneECU with a locked 2011 TE449? Mine is locked, so I've also got PCV+AT. Don't have an Android device to try TuneECU unfortunately.

 

[StephenMIAO]

When my bike is in neutral, it rolls just fine without any "drag" whatsoever. If I have it in gear, pull in the clutch and try to move the bike, it rolls but is much harder to move. There is some pretty significant "drag". Is this a characteristic of a hydraulic clutch? Something that needs attention? Thanks!

Is the problem solved?