2013 310r Clicks but will not start, is it the solanoid or something else

[Mike Mclennan]

I went riding and stator wires burned to the exhuast, wasn't held down properly, thanks to me!
The bike has only done ten hours.
Have ordered a new relay but will not get it for another six weeks because of where I am (Vanuatu! nobody seems to want to post here!) , just wondering whether anybody has any thoughts for how I could diagnose this or check the system to see whether it actually is the relay or is there a further problem elsewhere. Any thoughts.

Just afraid to touch things and bridge things with an ecu that is probably $400 to replace or something.

Battery I have tried two, and are both fully charged.

Also not sure whether there might be a short or damage to the stator from the shorting on the muffler etc,
since the wires were burned not sure why the solanoid would be burned.
It was a single track ride all first gear hard core, so lots of stalls and starts.
Trying to figure out whether it is one issue or two separate ones.
Such as burned something inside the starter for example.

Video below to explain.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_zFnizbyhI&feature=em-upload_owner

 

[davids70]

Can you kick it ?

 

[Mike Mclennan]

Can you kick it ?

Yes kicks easily now to start. At the time on the ride It Is how I made it back. Horrid to start then did everything to not stall over logs and hill climbs etc. The difficulty at that time may have been related to the shorting stator wires or hot temp, but either way starts with my leg easily now.

 

[davids70]

Mike, I'm not sure if it could be the start relay, start motor or maybe a further problem of the e-start system. Hope you are lucky and it's only a lower breakdown.

Here you have a link to the workshop manual:
http://www.endurofactory.nl/pdfs/2013/2012_WSM_TE-TC-TXC_250R-310R.pdf

E-start system issues:
http://www.cafehusky.com/threads/te-250-310-xlite-starter-issues.24533/
http://www.cafehusky.com/threads/hot-start-issues-where-to-start-2012-txc310.43689/

 

[need2boat]

read the section in the manual about the starter and the relay can be bench checked but also with a multi meeter you can check if you're getting power to the starter. You've bigger issue to me is those buggered wires. I'd pull header and address them. Then once all the connections are good give it a go.

What I had some issue with those same wires and I wrapped with a small piece of heat tape the type used for muffer or spark plugs.

 

[Mike Mclennan]

Thanks for the help, and a big help for the service manual, I couldn't find that before when I looked on the net.

Thanks for sending the images, as good to see some ideas on heat shielding.

On mine there is a metal tab/strap to hold down the wires but since I put the bike back together after shipping it looks like I stuffed up on this minor unless came loose on cleaning or something the result of the wires rubbing on the header... ooops.

Anyway, I will return and get back with an update once I try some of the diagnosis leads given.

 

[Mike Mclennan]

Okay took header off re-connected burned stator wire for test purposes.

Tested start relay as per manual - is working

took starter off completely, tried to start, same no start.

tested for continuity as per manual, has continuity so manual infers no need to replace!

So go back to starter, do a couple of rotations manually grounding starter to footpeg and presto
STARTER SPINS

Okay so I test it ten times then it doesn't spin on the last go. spin it manually half a turn and it's off again.

Looks like it takes a 6mm socket which I don't have handy on me but without flipping the lid on the starter

it would seem like a burned armature causing contact loss to the brush on that part of the rotation????????

 

[R_Little]

These starters eat brushes.

It's a known problem

 

[Mike Mclennan]

Okay so turns out the bolt for the starter is 5.5mm and not 6mm that was a hunt to find!
Below image of the starter. Looks like the burned stator wire had nothing to do with the starter burning, as starter only has either on or off.

Evidently this starter doesn't like to be worked too hard.

Honestly the pick up on the clutch is very fine, I rode a ktm350 that was definately much easier on the clutch point engage, but perhaps new bike just needs to be worn in as well.........
The quick clutch doesn't help the rid-ability for technical sections where you just stall over and over again. Hence starting it so much. Perhaps heat from the manifold doesn't help either, I know how hot it is after it burned my leg.

I don't want to think about a recluse clutch perhaps I might need to add a couple of teath to the back sprocket or one less on the front, to help in the not stall on this technical low speed track.

Does anybody have any idea whether this sort of starter burn would be covered under warranty?

Michael.

 

[need2boat]

I recently went through a lot hoops and parts and finally broke down and bought a new starter. I've read that they didn't make some improvements to them when I pulled mine it looked about the same as yours. The issue being that the plastic parts that hold the brushes cracked due to the heat. So even if you could source new brushes it won't matter. Per the warranty issue. I really think that would have a lot to do with you're dealer and how hard he can/will push for you. I also think think with the change over to KTM it might be hard. Starter are wear items but that should be within reason for sure. I bought one about 2 months ago and it ran $250.00.

Joe

 

[JimBob]

My starter lasted less than a year before it failed and had to be replaced. I think I've read that the 2014 had an updated starter. Might be interesting to check the part numbers to see if they are different.

 

[JimBob]

Same part number for the 2013 and 2014 but there may have been changes made to the starter unit, not sure though.

 

[Mike Mclennan]

Hi Joe was that 250USD, was that new or S/h. I could do with knowledge of a us based dealer willing to post at usps rates (and not double!) to overseas if you happen to know.

 

[Mike Mclennan]

It has just occurred to me that the one way clutch could be stuck and therefore that is what has killed the starter.

If I kick the bike over manually and I look down the gear hole where the worm drive goes, should the gear I can see be moving?

 

[need2boat]

Hey Mike that price was US. I don't know if my local dealer would ship but I'm told Halls who many people on this list love will ship without any issue payment I'm guessing would be paypal that does add some fees.

If the worm gear or the sprang is stuck it's quite a noticeable feeling when you're kicking or if the started were working you'd hear the start dragging when the engine starts up. If you want to check It's better off to drain the oil and have a look at the sprang it's self but when you kick if you don't hear/feel the rotation I think you're fine. Husky did make an updated ring pinon but you're bike would have it already.

Per the question about the updated starter. My understanding was they didn't change part numbers rather just made changes to the production run. I don't have any other info. The starter i got recently looked the same as the one I pulled off the bike and mine is a 2012 TXC.

Joe

 

[Mike Mclennan]

When I emailed the local distributor about the starter, turns out there is only a 6 month warranty in Australia and while I have used the bike for about 5 it took 2 to get it overseas. I know last time I checked over a year ago the warranty was 12 months so must have changed recently.

When I emailed not the dealer but distributor He/they stated
"starter motor looks like that is because it has been spinning at the same speed as the engine, maybe from starting it in 1st with the throttle open and it back firing? You need to start it in Neutral with no clutch or throttle opening to avoid this damage."
* Firstly this is ironic as I first asked when I purchased the bike specifically whether I should ever start in first gear or only neutral, I received the following response from the same
"The problem was the earlier ‘worm drive’ from the starter motor, but that has been sorted and your model comes with the updated parts from the production line."

* I don't see how what has happened to mine or has happened with this scenario not sure what I have left to go on though so I need to understand what is going on. I have never started the bike with any more than 0 throttle perhaps 10% if I ever have, while I might start in gear the clutch is in, and it hasn't ever backfired.

So I guess the question is obviously these guys deal with this all the time in terms of what causes the malfunction, can it just melt like mine has from simple overuse, in really hot horrible conditions with no circulation on hill climb on multiple starts over and over again trying to get up that hill or obstacle or whatever.
Can this kind of destruction to the starter only happen as he has suggested when the starter is linked to the motor and how would this be sustained to cause this kind of damage, unless the one way clutch was destroyed in that process?

I still don't understand this but I assume his line of thinking given the below parts that he said I needed infers that the one way clutch is locked to the engine and starter??????
1 x 8539725 worm drive $138
1 x 8000A6990 gasket 99c
1 x 800087289 one-way clutch 88.75
1 x 8000A6974 retainer plate $9
1 x 8000A7059 starter motor $290
Above are from the Halls website as per your advise (Thankyou heaps)

I then need to understand a diagnosis of the one way gear.
If it wasn't functioning wouldn't either it be jammed??? or gears stripped??????
My gears are perfect as per images
If it were jammed........
If I can turn the one way gear in the hole freely one way with a flat screwdriver down the wormdrive hole but not the other that means it is still in 100% working condition correct????

Thankyou for all your help to a newbie, it is much appreciated.

 

[need2boat]

Mike,

I think it always helps to start the bike in neutral even if you're kicking it but this is the first I've heard it being the cause. That said I have noticed that starting it in gear is much harder on the engine and often harder to get it started and I can see it having more ware on the parts. Again I don't think it helps but the real issue is the starter size and design. It's just light weight and gets the shit beat out of it. i feel they can fail for all types of reason, not just one.

I went thru much of this myself as well as many others on the list so do some searching on the "xlite stater" this is my thread http://www.cafehusky.com/threads/hot-start-issues-where-to-start-2012-txc310.43689/page-2 but you'll also find one from Rich Little.

I would not buy the sprang, ring pinion or other parts till you have a look. You just can't get an idea of condition from looking down that rabbit hole at them. You gota pull them out. I think the list of parts they are sending you is what the dealer would Throw at the problem when it was being covered. IF you're going to be buying parts I would check what you've got. The worm gear in you're pictures does not looked chipped or worn so I don't see why you'd replace it.

Getting it apart and together really isn't to hard but does require a few special tools. You will need a fly wheel puller then a flywheel holder. The pullers are not to hard to come but but the holder I only know of the Husky or Zipty brand.Halls I think also sell zipty so I would see if they would also sell the tool. The puller can also be bought from them or off ebay. You don't need to buy the Husky brand It's kind of a must have or at least make something like it.

If you do decided to pull off the flywheel. I would also replace add a new woodruff keys on the flywheel shaft worm gear. They are 25 cents or so. It was also a good call that the guy added a new starter gasket. They are paper thin and easy to rip. The manual instruction on the process is quite good so that's helpful.

 

[Mike Mclennan]

Okay I have read through some more posts in the history now that I know what else to search on.

I don't seem to have a clear understanding though it seems to be speculative whether there could or could not be an issue with the one way clutch if it turns one way freely and locks the other way.... For example does it still mean there may be an issue under load and you can't just test that by spinning it with your hand, which I think is what you wrote in one of your posts.

I could not figure out from your experience whether you even found an issue with the one way gear.
Would it have simply been a case of replace the starter and everything fine anyhow, after all the one way clutch seems to spin freely and there is no obvious damage either to gears etc..
Perhaps I am just in denial, the bike has the updated parts and only done ten hours, the one way clutch at least on basic inspection seems to be working.

I am assuming here that it is just the starter that has died and everything else is unrelated.......
woods no air
high humidity
high temparatures
hot engine with high proximity of temperature from manifold - I know it burned me
lots of stall starting from a newbie on a new bike not used to a quick hydraulic clutch
all resulted to brushes breakdown through the positive terminal melting everything (note that ground terminal is fine) there armature all black not getting current, and then system not turning,then shorting armature copper with excessive push down on starts.


Other people seem to have issues with the either the worm gear stripping (older) or the system locking up or the "sprang gear" being worn, what the measure of worn is would be good to know, does a new one have no dip in the cogs, I assume the dip is for the worm gear to mesh correctly.

I have taken the flywheel cover off and starter gears on side view all looks new. It is also spins freely by hand one way and locks the other.

 

[Johnrg]

It may be as the distributor said, regarding the starter running with the motor. This can occur if you have the throttle turned 1 degree and don't let the starter go right away. They can run together and the starter does not like that. I try to keep my hand over the master cylinder and not on the throttle. If I am doing a critical start somewhere and crack the throttle a tad, I stab the starter not a steady push. Just a thought as I have noticed the starter can get caught up if the engine is revved slightly on starting by cracking the throttle. Starter and no throttle or use extreme caution. Realize it's a weak link and don't let it labor and stab it at times to get it over tdc instead of keeping the button pressed.

 

[need2boat]

Mike,

Yea sorry on the rambling in my thread. I was kind of learning as I went and as you pointed out just throwing parts at a problem. In hind sight I really think just replacing the starter was the big item and would have fixed most of the problems. The dealers I think just replace all the parts because when they looks as cost and time it's the best course of action. When it's you and I paying for everything and doing the work it's worth taking the time and checking things a little closer.

My bike is a 2012 and it's got some hours on it, I think around 100 when I did this work. The ring and pinon were worn but again I think in hind sight not really that bad. I went back and forth on replacing the sprang and in the end I just kept mine. My local dealer owner Bill did give me a good tip and told me to take the sprang apart and really check it.Most shops just replace them as the labor to clean and inspect is as much as the part. But If you pull the flywheel the sprang is on the back. You pop off a cap, pull it out and you'll see a spring wire around the outside. lay out a sheet of paper or clean towel as you don't want to loose them. They fit one way so take a picture if need be. The tip I got was to take it apart as dirt can get trapped in between the pieces and the smallest piece can causing drag or prevent it from closing correctly. The only time you really need to replace one is if it's really grooved along the out edge where it contacts the inside of the flywheel.

As far as testing on the bike. I think it's possible to spin it and see if it's working but you can't inspect it for wear without pulling the flywheel.

If you don't have access to parts/tools in you're area my advice would be buy the starter, and new gasket and Install. Now that you know more about other issues pay attention. If you hear or feel drag or the flywheel hanging up with the starter. Go back back and check or the sprang or other possible issues.

Joe