2012 TE511 Fuel leaking into gearbox?

[Rearwheelin]

On the TE 449/511 when the bike is pointed up hill and with a full tank the fuel will completely settle on the tanks check valve/ pressure relief vent at the top of the tank at gas cap.... I can hear my pressure relief open to vent tank once in a while just parked in the garage.... I can see how if someone doesn't remove the catch can it would allow intake vac to load up the can..... I soldered shut the hose fitting on the head between intake so my gassy oil never came from the fuel tank.... I noticed the oil was a little overfilled and on the foamy side with the factory oil fill.... Is it possible break-in oil is what it's filled with at the dealer and would cause this ? I'm getting ready to change the oil in mine again, it hasn't built any volume at all after my first oil change , in fact I had to add some before 3rd ride.... Bike has a bit over 200 on it now .

 

[Pete Rocha]

You said you fixed the oil getting in the airbox...what did you do ?

I'm sorry, I should have said "I took care of it" vs fixed it. I just went with others have said, and pulled air filter cleaned and re-oiled (I'm going to guess that having it severely overoiled may cause increased vacuum in air box), and that combined with making sure oil level is in bottom 1/2 of sight glass took care of the oil in airbox issue..I haven't had a problem with that since I cleaned and adjusted the oil level.

 

[Pete Rocha]

If you are getting that much oil in the gas, then it has to be thining out the oil and compromising the ability to lubricate all of the necessary bearings , bushings ect. I think that if you change the oil and then let the bike sit and your site glass is becoming increasingly more full then it is leaking by somewhere, and making it's way to the crankcase. If the bike was carburated it would be the float valve not seating on a FI bike I'm not sure, unless your tank vent isn't venting and the heat from the motor is causing the tank to pressurize and leaking past the fuel injector somehow. Take it back to the dealer before it hydro locks or wears out your engine prematurely, something is not right. The gas will displace the oil and settle to the bottom of the crankcase, if the pickup for these motors is at the lowest point(which makes sense)then your first few seconds of running at start up is pumping gas/diluted oil to all your bearings(not good). just my 2 cents

Yes, that is exactly what I'm worried about. I will be taking it down to them shortly.

 

[Pete Rocha]

We're onto something here, by chance was the charcoal emmissions cannister removed and for some reason the fuel tank vent hooked up to the manifold vacuum? Or is the charcoal cannister still on the bike and perhaps filled with fuel? Those charcoal cannisters can clog easily if raw fuel gets into them and at that point the charcoal cannister can fill up with fuel due to vacuum from intake and once all of the vapor space is gone raw fuel will get sucked into intake after the throttle body.

The charcoal canister is still on it, but I haven't checked to see if it's full of fuel. I will take a look at that.

 

[Pete Rocha]

(this sounds like too much fuel for it to be a rich mixture or fuel getting past the rings)
SOunds like a new bike- I'd be talking to a dealer for help for sure,,,, but here's where I'd focus:

Good call Bobby-
1-PETE do you have the Charcoal Canister removed? If no continue/if yes go to 2. (canister could be full of fuel- and with a full fuel tank you could be pushing fuel into your intake once pressurized. Unplug the canister and dump the fuel- (you might conciser removing- but if you keep it due to Emission Requirements- know that this can happen and check- also leave an air gap at the top of your fuel tank on refills)
2-What do you have on your gas cap vent? I am not familiar with the 449/511s vent system (I assume its different than standard set ups) If you removed the carcoal canister but kept the stock one way valve.... remove it. It can force the tank to build pressure and cause problems-
If none of these look like the problem- go to 3


3- Although this is a brand new bike- we're running out of possibilities so a leaky fuel injector makes sense- The system is pressurized by the pump to around 40psi- ALL EFI systems are to hold pressure once the bike is shut down. So if the bike were not running leaky injector would allow fuel to pass until the pressure dropped. Also, it would probably let unmonitored fuel pass when running (which may or may not go unnoticed). TO TEST- you would hook up a fuel pressure tester between the pump outlet and the injector. "Prime the pump" see what the pressure is once leveled off- then watch the gauge- it should hold that pressure- if it drops you are seeing the pressure be released through a leak- verify there are none in you "test setup" and if not its your injector. It doesn't hold that Prime pressure indefinitely- the regulate and check valve in the pump may let some pressure return but should be pretty stable.

Someone did this and took pictures a few years back if I find it I'll post it.... EDIT:FOUND IT:: <<TTpostbyOverloadTT>> although he wasn't doing the test for diagnosis he did establish norms....

Thanks Husky. This pretty much aligns with what I was going to look at, although I don't have a way to test the fuel pressure (unless I go buy a gauge setup). Since everything is pretty much stock (other than adding the JD Tuner), I think it's a simple take it to the dealer and have them deal with it since it is still under warranty.

 

[Pete Rocha]

Assuming it's a leaky injector, are these supposed to remain pressurized after being shut off? If yes, then a leaky injector could be the problem.
If no, then there could be an issue with the fuel pump, or the fuel pump controls?
The other unexplained issue is that if there is that much raw fuel getting into the cyl., the bike should effectively be flooded & take quite a bit of cranking to get it started(assuming it doesn't hydrolock 1st.). Nobody has indicated this to be the case.

Definitely not an issue with rings, as rings are pretty much done all the seating they're gonna do before 50 miles. Even on perfectly seated rings, raw liquid fuel will still leak past the ring end gaps over a period of time.
IMO the engine oil should be sent for analysis to see how much fuel is getting in there %age wise.

I wanted to note that I never had it flood, but as I noted before in one of my "tests" is that I stopped the engine, let the system set for only about 10 seconds and then fired it back up...from which a generous amount of black smoke did come from the exhaust. I never tried letting it set longer than that to get the maximum "flooding" effect if you will, but then again the other day I did stop it for a minute or two, and although it seemed to fire up, it wouldn't stay running very easily and did have a good amount of black smoke, and a very heavy fuel odor coming from the exhaust for about 5-10 seconds.

 

[Pete Rocha]

(this sounds like too much fuel for it to be a rich mixture or fuel getting past the rings)
SOunds like a new bike- I'd be talking to a dealer for help for sure,,,, but here's where I'd focus:

Good call Bobby-
1-PETE do you have the Charcoal Canister removed? If no continue/if yes go to 2. (canister could be full of fuel- and with a full fuel tank you could be pushing fuel into your intake once pressurized. Unplug the canister and dump the fuel- (you might conciser removing- but if you keep it due to Emission Requirements- know that this can happen and check- also leave an air gap at the top of your fuel tank on refills)
2-What do you have on your gas cap vent? I am not familiar with the 449/511s vent system (I assume its different than standard set ups) If you removed the carcoal canister but kept the stock one way valve.... remove it. It can force the tank to build pressure and cause problems-
If none of these look like the problem- go to 3


3- Although this is a brand new bike- we're running out of possibilities so a leaky fuel injector makes sense- The system is pressurized by the pump to around 40psi- ALL EFI systems are to hold pressure once the bike is shut down. So if the bike were not running leaky injector would allow fuel to pass until the pressure dropped. Also, it would probably let unmonitored fuel pass when running (which may or may not go unnoticed). TO TEST- you would hook up a fuel pressure tester between the pump outlet and the injector. "Prime the pump" see what the pressure is once leveled off- then watch the gauge- it should hold that pressure- if it drops you are seeing the pressure be released through a leak- verify there are none in you "test setup" and if not its your injector. It doesn't hold that Prime pressure indefinitely- the regulate and check valve in the pump may let some pressure return but should be pretty stable.

Someone did this and took pictures a few years back if I find it I'll post it.... EDIT:FOUND IT:: <<TTpostbyOverloadTT>> although he wasn't doing the test for diagnosis he did establish norms....

After re-reading through this, one thing is that I do have a tendency to top off the fuel tank...i'm assuming this is very bad? Maybe that's the problem...I will pull the charcoal canister and see if there is fuel in it. If there isn't then i'll stick with the leaking injector I think.

 

[HUSKYnXJnWI]

Yea I'd check that canister- or disconnect it entirely from the bike correctly(though I don't know your local regs or your intentions with the bike...) and yea- you want to leave a small airspace at the top of the tank- the manual suggests this I believe...

If it is a leaky injector every time you start it you are washing oil away from vital parts and ruining your oil in your crankcase- I'd definitely get it in soon to stop the source of the problem to prevent further issues. I had a buddy that left his bike tipped over one night and then parked it for the winter- only to have a siezed motor in the spring- (little did he know) the float bowl emptied into the cylinder and washed it clean- left with too much time it seized... At this point I can't say what the issue is for sure but want you to enjoy your bike.

let us know how it turns out

 

[Pete Rocha]

Yea I'd check that canister- or disconnect it entirely from the bike correctly(though I don't know your local regs or your intentions with the bike...) and yea- you want to leave a small airspace at the top of the tank- the manual suggests this I believe...

If it is a leaky injector every time you start it you are washing oil away from vital parts and ruining your oil in your crankcase- I'd definitely get it in soon to stop the source of the problem to prevent further issues. I had a buddy that left his bike tipped over one night and then parked it for the winter- only to have a siezed motor in the spring- (little did he know) the float bowl emptied into the cylinder and washed it clean- left with too much time it seized... At this point I can't say what the issue is for sure but want you to enjoy your bike.

let us know how it turns out

Yep..that's why it's been parked in the garage.. I'm going to check things tonight, but darn it if it didn't look like the canister is setup where the vent line comes in from the tank (and the vent tubes are situated at the very top part of the tank, that I don't know how much would submerge if the tank if topped off to the overflowing point...but I will keep that in mind on my next fillup), and the other tube to (or should I say from) the canister is just routed so that it vents to the atmosphere. IF that ends up being the case, then wouldn't the cannister getting flooded be a moot point? I mean if it is routed so that the other end of the cannister is being pulled by vacuum from somewhere (intake manifold or airbox, etc), then yes, I can see the gas getting sucked in (or pushed from a full hot tank). Anyway, like I said I'm just going off of memory and would rather trust your guys' opinion without looking at the physical setup right in front of me. But I will check it when i get home and post my observations and pictures if I can.

At least my dealer just e-mailed me back and said that they have a new injector on order and it'll be to them in a few days...

 

[Pete Rocha]

Yea I'd check that canister- or disconnect it entirely from the bike correctly(though I don't know your local regs or your intentions with the bike...) and yea- you want to leave a small airspace at the top of the tank- the manual suggests this I believe...

If it is a leaky injector every time you start it you are washing oil away from vital parts and ruining your oil in your crankcase- I'd definitely get it in soon to stop the source of the problem to prevent further issues. I had a buddy that left his bike tipped over one night and then parked it for the winter- only to have a siezed motor in the spring- (little did he know) the float bowl emptied into the cylinder and washed it clean- left with too much time it seized... At this point I can't say what the issue is for sure but want you to enjoy your bike.

let us know how it turns out

Husky, as an update..yeah, I was wrong. I thought there were only two hoses, but there are three...(what does the hose that comes out of the bottom of the charcoal canister do? That was the one that I was thinking when I said it vented to the atmosphere). I did just take the canister off, and there was nothing in it (gas wise). I even took a good whiff and there was barely a hint of gas vapor smell...so I'm guessing that it's probably not the canister, and more likely the injector. I did take a look at where the vent hoses go in, and when the gas tank is filled to the max, the vents are probably a good 1" above the level of the gas (and that's when it's on it's kick stand). So I don't see how gas could flow through, other than when the bike is accelerating hard and the gas is pushed back against the back of the tank. But as I said, no gas in the canister and barely a hint of fuel smell in it at all.

 

[Rearwheelin]

Your intake draws air threw the bottom hole all the time , skimming the hydrocarbons into the intake ..... Is why one reason why they don't run good with the can, mine would die just idling for no reason...

 

[HUSKYnXJnWI]

Good! so the injector sounds like the solution from the dealer- and the canister not at fault at this time.
Rearwheelin is right-
Also- the canister and all its hoses- is prime for creating vacume leaks- if you are going to use it- check it often.

Sounds like you'll be riding soon with confidence- glad you noticed the oil level symptom before catastrophe

 

[waserman]

i've had an issue with the tank being "too full" and causing the tank cap vent to stick as in not venting and preassurizing the tank on several differant bikes . This and the color of the tank itself is why I now have the IMS clear tank on my bike. I have had to remove the tank cap check valve on several bikes as a result of them sticking and not venting to atmosphere and the tank expanding/pressurizing and looking like it was going to blow up when parked with a hot engine and in the sun.The valves I removed function to keep the gas from spilling in the event of a crash/tip over from the tank or if you overfill to keep from splashing out the tube.If it can't get out because it's in the closed position it's going to take the path of least resistance, carbed bike through the carb past the float valve and out the overflow tubes and into the motor and on the ground, fuel injected bike through the fuel injector and the throttle body into the motor as there is no overflow tubes on the throttle body. The other problem I've experienced with the Huskey(09TE510)was that the bottom of the tank and location of the fuel pump is in very close proximity to the head on the motor, lots of heat radiating to the fuel tank when going slow or when you shut the bike off, there are heat insulating kits that are available to install on the bottom of the tank, they work very well.I'm not sure what your cap looks like but if you can hear any preassure escape when you remove the cap then I would check that valve to see if it's gummed up.

 

[Pete Rocha]

i've had an issue with the tank being "too full" and causing the tank cap vent to stick as in not venting and preassurizing the tank on several differant bikes . This and the color of the tank itself is why I now have the IMS clear tank on my bike. I have had to remove the tank cap check valve on several bikes as a result of them sticking and not venting to atmosphere and the tank expanding/pressurizing and looking like it was going to blow up when parked with a hot engine and in the sun.The valves I removed function to keep the gas from spilling in the event of a crash/tip over from the tank or if you overfill to keep from splashing out the tube.If it can't get out because it's in the closed position it's going to take the path of least resistance, carbed bike through the carb past the float valve and out the overflow tubes and into the motor and on the ground, fuel injected bike through the fuel injector and the throttle body into the motor as there is no overflow tubes on the throttle body. The other problem I've experienced with the Huskey(09TE510)was that the bottom of the tank and location of the fuel pump is in very close proximity to the head on the motor, lots of heat radiating to the fuel tank when going slow or when you shut the bike off, there are heat insulating kits that are available to install on the bottom of the tank, they work very well.I'm not sure what your cap looks like but if you can hear any preassure escape when you remove the cap then I would check that valve to see if it's gummed up.

I've never had an issue with pressure coming out when I've removed the fuel cap yet. The way the tank on the bike is situated, its not very close to the head...I'd guess it's probably a good 6+ inches away, but I will take a look when I get the new injector in if the tank is getting hot or not.

 

[Pete Rocha]

Good! so the injector sounds like the solution from the dealer- and the canister not at fault at this time.
Rearwheelin is right-
Also- the canister and all its hoses- is prime for creating vacume leaks- if you are going to use it- check it often.

Sounds like you'll be riding soon with confidence- glad you noticed the oil level symptom before catastrophe

I'm sure that the question i'm about to ask is in another thread, but what steps do I need to do to remove the canister, yet keep the bike in a state where if I were to sell it, I can hook it back in? I mean obviously I know how to pull it out as I did that last night (and I know how to cap the vacuum line on the intake), it's how do I correctly terminate the vent line coming from the tank so that I don't end up having gas shooting everywhere or something?

 

[Pete Rocha]

Your intake draws air threw the bottom hole all the time , skimming the hydrocarbons into the intake ..... Is why one reason why they don't run good with the can, mine would die just idling for no reason...

Yes, mine has(had) the same issue...that's why I put the race map in and put the JD tuner..that definately helped and I still have the can attached (hopefully not for long when I get the new injector in it.. )

 

[Rearwheelin]

I was given the opportunity to ride before I buy at the dealer..... In stock form bike had way to much backpressure and wouldn't even idle more than a few seconds...... Would stall at any given time and had to be ready for the stall when making u turns.... Dealer said you need to keep it reved up , I said the bike wasn't ridable and he needed to plug the offroad chip in or I'm not buying big diffrence but would still stall although not as bad and less back pressure .... When I got home and before I unloaded it I started it up and put air to it with my leaf blower to see how long it idle before it stalled, it wasn't long before it died..... I pulled the hose at the head and put my finger on it .... It was apparent this was causing the stalls as it would idle all day long with the hole plugged...
You might have your tunner too rich also trying to cure the stall on bottom end also.... I would plug this hole( took the fitting out and heated with my propane tourch and fed 60/40 solder in it)..

 

[Pete Rocha]

I was given the opportunity to ride before I buy at the dealer..... In stock form bike had way to much backpressure and wouldn't even idle more than a few seconds...... Would stall at any given time and had to be ready for the stall when making u turns.... Dealer said you need to keep it reved up , I said the bike wasn't ridable and he needed to plug the offroad chip in or I'm not buying big diffrence but would still stall although not as bad and less back pressure .... When I got home and before I unloaded it I started it up and put air to it with my leaf blower to see how long it idle before it stalled, it wasn't long before it died..... I pulled the hose at the head and put my finger on it .... It was apparent this was causing the stalls as it would idle all day long with the hole plugged...
You might have your tunner too rich also trying to cure the stall on bottom end also.... I would plug this hole( took the fitting out and heated with my propane tourch and fed 60/40 solder in it)..

Yes, my bike was horrible when I got it too. The thing that helped me out when I was running stock was that the air bypass was set too far out. Setting it back to about 2 1/2 turns out almost cured it. Then I decided to pull the spark arrestor out and then it ran like crap again. So I ended up putting the tuner in and left it at the default settings it came at (which was for race setup with opened up exhaust), and put in the race map and now it runs like a champ..well other than the issue with the gas in the gear box, which was there from the very beginning. I only added the race map jumper and tuner as a "last resort"...but I still see that i'm getting fuel into the oil as I can see that after 30 miles, the oil level in the sight glass has already risen. Now I don't know if I would want to solder the hole shut, as that is pretty much permanent, so I think I will just get a rubber plug and use it instead. And of course I'll be tinkering with the tuner to get it adjusted for street riding.

 

[Rearwheelin]

Yes, my bike was horrible when I got it too. The thing that helped me out when I was running stock was that the air bypass was set too far out. Setting it back to about 2 1/2 turns out almost cured it. Then I decided to pull the spark arrestor out and then it ran like crap again. So I ended up putting the tuner in and let it at the default settings it came at (which was for race setup with opened up exhaust), and put in the race map and now it runs like a champ..well other than the issue with the gas in the gear box, which was there from the very beginning. I only added the race map jumper and tuner as a "last resort"...but I still see that i'm getting fuel into the oil as I can see that after 30 miles, the oil level in the sight glass has already risen. Now I don't know if I would want to solder the hole shut, as that is pretty much permanent, so I think I will just get a rubber plug and use it instead.

It's not permanent , all you would do to open it back up is reheat and blast the solder out with compressed air or drill out..... I put smog caps over it also and allready cracked

 

[Pete Rocha]

It's not permanent , all you would do to open it back up is reheat and blast the solder out with compressed air or drill out..... I put smoke caps over it also and allready cracked

Yeah, I do see that happening... So when you did yours, did you just pull the line from the vacuum intake and leave the can, or did you remove the can alltogether? If so, what did you do with the vent hose going into it? Just route it somewhere else, so that if gas comes out it just runs on the ground..I mean I wouldn't expect that to happen very often.