125-200cc 165 Kick Start Shafts breaking! x2 in a week

[freezerGeezer]

A quick forum search tells me this isn't that unusual but I have sheared off 2 in the last week, question is could it be anything at all to do with the fact I have just fitted the FBF dual map ignition?

The bike a 2004 CR165 had about 15hrs on it since fitting the 165 kit and hasn't missed a beat or had any issues.

The fist time was at a practice track last weekend, first time out since fitting the FBF dual map ignition. I had been on the track a few times on & off, went to start her up after a rest, got quite a kick back and it snapped clean off.

Second time happened yesterday, after rushing to repair the bike ready for this weekends event. not long into the race someone came off in front of me on a steep incline I stalled, tried to kick her over and it snapped again, race over for me.

So.....is it possible that the FBF dual map ignition could play a part in this by shifting the timing and causing excessive kick back? I have been switching between maps but both times the shaft has snapped has been on the same map.

Any advice or modifications people have done to help prevent this from happening
I'm going to look at options for a custom made stronger shaft, also I recall seeing a post on here about a modified (longer) KTM kickstart, I know longer normally means more leverage/stress but if it makes starting easier with a less aggressive kick is it worth a shot?


Thanks

 

[johnnyboy]

Still not broken a shaft but have put to rest 3 stock kick starters and 2 of the ktm longer items I fitted, Two idler gears and two clutch baskets and a cracked case around the idler gear shaft. Now using a RM 125 kick start and no its not a direct replacement they need a sleeve inserting in them to take up the slack.
Since retarding the timing slightly the problem seems to of gone away but so did some top end revs

 

[freezerGeezer]

Johnnyboy - I remember reading about the modified KTM longer kick start lever, should have know it was you
So it sounds like I was right to think it could be ignition related then, FBF ignition is coming off and the standard one going back on!

I have just modded an TE/TC125 14-15 lever to fit

.
It didn't feel right cutting up a new lever

Used the original base part, just had to build up the two flat sides/stops with about 2mm of weld, the shaft that fits inside the new lever was already the correct diameter
Then had to cut away some of the bottom of the new lever (about 3-4mm) until the grove around the shaft lined up with the bolt hole.

Haven't fitted yet as I'm waiting for a new kickstart shaft to arrive. I expect it may be tight against the frame about 3/4 of the way through the stroke so may need a little more work.

 

[johnnyboy]

Nice job

Thats the same type of kickstart I used when I did the mod, That one snapped the alloy lug part off where it makes contact with the steel part

 

[motorpsycho]

This seems to be a rather common problem with the 125's.
Broke mine last year as well.
Not sure if your ignition was the problem.
I'm sure a longer kicker isn't the answer.

 

[Idacurt]

To the guys with broken shafts are you making sure to kick on the compression stroke or just kicking away when trying to start?
How hard is it to replace the broken part?

 

[johnnyboy]

I snap mine because I am a old fat ham fisted type of guy that spent most of his younger days kicking the crap out of just about every euro left side mounted kicker bikes but being left handed and footed never had a problem starting them while others had to stand beside the bike and kick with their right leg and then I turned the corner to the jap right side kickers and have even managed to snap two YZ250 kickstarts in my time
Dosnt take much of a kick back to either bust the kicker or take out the idler gear and clutch basket gear and as above I also cracked the crank case once but still not done a shaft which to my mind is a crap design with the machined in groove.
Every 125 bike I have tried to adapt a kick start from to fit the Husky has a larger diameter shaft but the main reason for trying other kick starts from other bikes is the lack of parts and very high costs if you can find one for the Husky tiddler.
2009 and up kick start is different from the earlier model but will fit the older bikes but the early model kicker hits the frame on the later bikes so wont work, I have one Husky kick start left and am keeping it locked up like the crown jewels till such time there is no other options
RM 125 kick start has a much meatier area where the steel part goes in and thats the area I keep snapping them and so far so good with many hours of use.

 

[johnnyboy]

 

[freezerGeezer]

Thats the same type of kickstart I used when I did the mod, That one snapped the alloy lug part off where it makes contact with the steel part

Great, in that case I have decided to go back to the original kick start for now. I'll keep the modded one for a spare.

This seems to be a rather common problem with the 125's.
Broke mine last year as well.
Not sure if your ignition was the problem.
I'm sure a longer kicker isn't the answer.

FBF ignition definitely seemed to cause more kick back, I have now gone back to the original ignition. Managed to get the track at the weekend and no issues at all, probably 10-12 starts. I'm yet to remove my stator cover but i suspect my timing is fully advanced on the adjuster holes, and the FBF ignition is trying to push it a little further and causing the kick back, but I'm no ignition expert & could be completely wrong
The modded kicker actually only worked out around 3-4mm longer after the cutting etc.

To the guys with broken shafts are you making sure to kick on the compression stroke or just kicking away when trying to start?
How hard is it to replace the broken part?

To be honest never gave it much though!
When starting from cold I normally give 2-3 slow kicks to get things moving and the kick start to finish as high as possible, then one swift kick and it starts easily.
When warm, any old kick will start it.

1st snapped shaft was a warm start not particularly hard kick, but got a hefty kick back.
2nd snapped in a race half way up a 45° incline while trying to hold on to the bike and not to slide backwards down the hill I probably jumped fairly hard on that one!

I can now replace a broken kickstart shaft in record time lol
Easy enough to do:
Drain oil & coolant
Remove front pipe, PV linkage cover, water pump cover
Disconnect PV linkage
Remove rear brake lever
Remove PV governor
Remove impeller (just unscrews anti-clock)
Remove the entire clutch casing
It is fiddly, but i do it with out removing the clutch.
Just keep an eye on the washers to make sure you don't drop them, one behind the kick start shaft and also on the water pump shaft.

still not done a shaft which to my mind is a crap design with the machined in groove.

Exactly where both of mine snapped. I think it may have been better if the thread was cut deeper ie passed the grove and into the main body of the shaft.

 

[freezerGeezer]

Johnnyboy, loving the polished clutch casing

 

[johnnyboy]

Freezer
There is no need to remove the impeller ect, There is one bolt that goes right through pump housing and the cases (long one ) and then the whole lot comes off leaving the pump ect attached to the clutch case, Makes the job even quicker
The ect means keep the powervalve govener in the case as well.

 

[freezerGeezer]

First time round I decided to replace the water pump shaft seal and to swap the PV governor springs at the same time so pulled them all out.
Second time round I guess I went into auto pilot and followed the same procedure

Oh well at least i now know it will be even easier if i ever have to change one in in the back of the van on race day

Where did you get your Blue oil fill cap/plug? I need one of those

 

[johnnyboy]

Where did you get your Blue oil fill cap/plug? I need one of those[/quote]

KX450F Item mate

 

[NCSteve]

Trick exhaust mount too

 

[shawbagga]

FYI there's a kicker on ebay from BMP(Bills) for $130ish US delivered

 

[wallybean]

It is interesting how some kick starters seem to fail and others last for 20 years. I don't like the design where they have the machined groove in the shaft between the splines and the part of the shaft that goes through the cases. My buddy Jon snapped his and I have ~8 years of kicking on mine.(knock on wood) I do keep a spare in the box just in case though.