09TE450, flameout while hot, off idle...Tuning? diagnose? suggestions?

[HUSKYnXJnWI]

09TE450-
Full Power uP done-
Ibeat last may- appears though that they adjusted FB1 so that did nothing to affect the 09 fueling in PU mode.
Runs great in more open stuff or even in tight stuff where it gets a break with some open stuff- but once in consistent tight stuff- it will flame out- predictably- as you open the throttle at the apex of a turn around a tree from closed throttle. Flames out/ fall over cause that's the point where hitting the power raises the bike back up... Or if I quickly open throttle to loft the front over an obstacle from a closed throttle....
I have done the the BBCMAt DIY EFI tweak: I like the response when the bike is cooler and not in consistent slow demanding single track- but still does flame out. Turning in Air Bypass does not effect flamout.
I have checked: fuel pump(its safety wired) but never showed a problem. Dumped fuel. Changes spark plug, checked coil connections. Battery is stock and in good condition. One thing that is different is I have a db killer that I made that is not as restrictive as the euro dbkiller but is not as open as the spark arrestor.

the dealer said that they do NOT play with CO1, CO2, or CO3 as that is something they have not been instructed to do by Husky. They said they may under special circumstances allow me to be the guinee pig and spend the day at the trail finding adjustments of CO's. They are a small shop and say no one has had a problem to base my issues from... seems pretty common problem on CafeHusky and TT.

So anyone found the flame out condition and fixed it with Ibeat or the PC? I am short on cash- but would buy the Ibeat 2 - especially since my speedo died- I have no idea if I get a fault code... dealer is 2 hours away for a quick check- not exactly convenient.

Where is my solution likely to be found? Ibeat 2 CO's, PC-5 with AT, other tweaks, ??

Or am I chasing something that cannot be tuned out?

Sorry for the book- but just wanted to get it all down first attempt... thanks in advance

 

[Riksha]

Look for the throttle stop thread. I had the idle high to prevent that pop & stall taking off. It cured almost all of the symptoms, no other adjustments. I no longer worry pulling out in front of on coming cars... I have the same bike.

 

[bbcmat]

If your shop won't help you - you have to help yourself. IMO - Ibeat II and cable should be in every EFI bike’s toolbox – like a set of tire irons.

Buy the software and start tweaking and learning.

I could consistently re-create flame-out on 09TE510 by having the throttle idle hard stop at a value that was higher than the TPS setpoint. That might help out.

MAT

 

[HUSKYnXJnWI]

I have been hoping that IbeatV2 would be able to help this and is probably my next move.... There have been some that have chased this issue and were unable to resolve it- giving me some doubt. My dealer offers to help but is apparently not familiar with changing CO values- I could probably buy the Ibeat 2 for the cost of being a guinnee pig- and continue to have the ability to resolve my own issues. I figure I will be able to figure it out fine- I can tune a FCR carb to where I have no complaints- and I think I have high expectations. I know the adjustments available on the Ibeat are limited- but concidering that it has sensors making adjustments adds to the mix- I assume my "state of tune" is just telling the bike to make the wrong adjustments.

But like I said it runs great in most circumstances- I just don't /can't trust it in technical and dangerous environments- for that I ride my 8 year old ktm with generation 1 FCR. BUT would like to ride my Husky as it has the ability to make trail trash feel like a magic carpet ride...

My throttle stop- Original Stock position: from August 09'

I checked my tps volts- I am at .998 volts closed and 4.63 volts open.
My bike was calibrated on the I/beat in Mid May 2009-
My bike is an 09TE450-
My Idle Bypass screw is set to 4 1/4 turns out.
My bike ides at 1850.​

That was 3 turns out on my throttle stop- I changed it to 1/4 turn in on my throttle stop. Is it possible that my starting point was too far open where changing it to 1/4 turn could have created the flameout? (tps was set by deler in may- I changed the Hard stop to 1/4 after that, it was not adjusted with Ibeat afterward)

I might try to open the throttle stop a little to see if that decreases the negative effects... For now...
When I get my hands on an Ibeat2- I will readjust the TPS to 100.2% WOT and then go from there. I will check the CO values and play with that...

Mat- I believe I have read and studied every comment you have made and appriciate your knowledge and experience- thanks for sharing

 

[bbcmat]

Readjust TPS to 100.2% wide full open.

For right now - adjust idle air bypass thumbscrew to 2.75-3 turns out - your idle rpm will wind up to 2000-2150 rpm but thats the only way its going to run off idle. Since you're so rich - more air (less turns out) is required to balance it. Extra restriction in the exhaust isn't helping.

If the staff at the shop accepted the TPS value with the Throttle plate hardstop at 1/4 turn in from closed (about 0.930V) you're cooked - it has to be reset to the value that gives you 100.2% on a warmed up engine and fully charged battery. (approx .998 - 1.015V typical). You can always do the DIY TPS tweak in HARDWARE after it has be properly set up on SOFTWARE.

Put a fresh spark plug in it (be careful on the torque - it doesn't take much) if you can - it's been huffing rich since you brought it home from new. Be sure to set the gap (27 thou ? I'm going from memory)

I have no cure for the high idle but you should be able to get it under 1950 once its tweaked in with Ibeat.

MAT

 

[HUSKYnXJnWI]

thanks mat-
Bike was hooked up to Ibeat before changing to 1/4 on throttle stop-
Right now- my air bypass screw is 2.25 turns out- My Speedo/Tach died so I don't know the specific rpm its at- I'd say its in the area of 1900-2000 (guessing)
I am on my third plug- just put a new Cr8ix in it.

What I understood from the your hardstop tweak is that less than (negative) volts = zero so if .998 volts was my original zero then .990 is still zero. But what if my change was greater than normal... (my hardstop was 3 turns from zero) then adjusted to 1/4 turn- maybe I am turning the throttle and it registers the zero mark much later in my throttle turn... what I am saying is maybe my change was so substancial (3 turns out to 1/4 out) that it gives a negative effect... ?

Ultimately- Sounds like I can't change much till I get an Ibeat- So in your opinion Ibeat/ over PCV at this point? sucks cause this is a busy time (setting up AMA National Dualsport) and money is tight too... I bet my exhaust insert has something to do with this as well. I will go back to my original TPS volt (where the ECU belives zero is) and see what that does- also test with stock sparky- for sound reasons I really cant run it but it would be nice to know if it could be "flameoutless) then I should be able to just change CO1 settings and "jet" for my pipe

 

[bbcmat]

In my experience, the TPS throttle tweak has no downside regardless of the start point - however - if you are so rich in the first 10% of throttle movement you need 2.25 turns out on the idle air bypass - I would try opening up the initial throttle plate to close to BUT NEVER EXCEEDING the software TPS setpoint. (essentially bringing it back to spec) and starting with the idle air bypass back at 3 turns out (stock)

You only have so many things to try without the software.

C01 / CO2 / CO3 at 95.5 / 98 / 99 and TPS at 100.2% WFO should be a ballpark (but safe) tuneup given the conditions you describe - but hitting it perfect without experimenting is a fantasy. I've written other posts on getting it closer than that if you what to make the most of the IBeat time and CO1 / idle air bleed relationship.

The main value of the DIY TPS tweak is to delay the inital tip-in ignition timing advance and artificially create a sudden change in the TPS readout off idle - the steady state fuel metering (IMO) is primarily driven by other inputs to the ECU.

I don't have a Power Commander so I can't tell you how great it is - but the 09+ EFI, Ibeat 2, and a user with some interest / record keeping is going to get it VERY nice.

MAT

 

[JasonfromMN]

What will the consequence be for exceeding the software TPS setpoint via the throttle hard stop?

 

[HUSKYnXJnWI]

What will the consequence be for exceeding the software TPS setpoint via the throttle hard stop?

Basically if you open it further than it was set by Ibeat-It will run like crap- worse off idle... BBCMAt documented the trials in his EFI DIY Tweak... if you decrease the opening of the butterfly (throttle hardstop screw) it may offer better responce- mine does. I just have a flameout issue that is probably unrelated to that- just a bit too rich for some extreme conditions.

 

[JasonfromMN]

How does your "richness" prob differ from what the ecu is seeing with the tps, in relation to the hard stop?

Doesn't the ecu ultimately control the ratio on low end based on what it sees on the tps?

If you've set your tps, done the efi tweak, then how would your fueling prob be different that these wouldn't address?

 

[HUSKYnXJnWI]

How does your "richness" prob differ from what the ecu is seeing with the tps, in relation to the hard stop?

Doesn't the ecu ultimately control the ratio on low end based on what it sees on the tps?

If you've set your tps, done the efi tweak, then how would your fueling prob be different that these wouldn't address?

First- this is confusing stuff for me and many- lots of interconected relationships that sometimes have inverse relationships than one would think...

If my bike is rich because the ECU is set to have rich numbers/settings based on what the bike wants- than it will be rich- all the sensors will try to make that specified setting happen whether it is a "rich condition" "ideal" or "lean".

TPS- ECU: ecu has a fuel map and ignition map and the EFI tweak does not really efect the Fuel map and it does seam to change the starting points- I don't know how this all works perfectly-but: this cant correct an overy rich or lean situation- need to adjust CO1, co2, co3 for that... Or PCV stuff. I can say-My bike is more responsive with the DIY EFI tweak- but has a Hot flameout in somce circumstances. Without the EFI tweak- it looses that "responsiveness" but still has the flameout.

TO UPdate: I put in the stock Spark arrestor this weekend in closed course and it was much better, but still not 'perfect" I had one flameout versus 20. This confirms it is related to my DBkiller and that the mixture is off. I am more confident that getting a Ibeat v2 and making needed changes would reso;ve my issues. Certainly a PC4 would also- but it would appear the Ibeat would suit me as it would tell me some diagnostic info.

 

[nocontrol]

I will be trying the throttle stop tweak tomorrow on my 09 SM510R, it flames out horribly off idle, its even flamed out multiple times right after starting to move and tried to throw me off. Accel pump in the powercommander software does not help and the fueling in that area looks fine which leads me to believe it is an actual problem with the throttle body/software.

 

[bbcmat]

"fueling in that area looks fine"

How are you judging that, and what are your target AFRs for that region?


MAT

 

[brock]

I've just set my 09 TE510 to CO 1-108 2-113 3-100.

I was previously at 1-101 2-115 3-100. This was the result of the dyno run but it meant there was hesitation at the bottom causing a flameout on a fast whip of the throttle. Lessening the gap between 1 and 2 (14 to 5) hasn't completely removed the hesitation, but it is much better than before and it doesn't cut out now.
I have also had a problem with the bike stalling and not running right on restart unless you turn off and on again (re-priming the fuel pump). I tried a new fuel pump and it cured it! Could it just be luck? I dont think so we tried the same on another TE and it cured that bike too!

 

[nocontrol]

"fueling in that area looks fine"

How are you judging that, and what are your target AFRs for that region?


MAT

Target AFRs are all around 13.2. However I don't think the autotune can populate the trims quickly enough to solve a problem like this on its own, it won't change trims just by blipping the throttle. I will try the TPS mod today and if that doesnt work I will try changing multiple values on the map in that whole area to different values (-5, +5, etc) to see if that helps.

 

[nocontrol]

And changing the TPS and/or fueling in that whole area did nothing to cure the off idle blubbler/stutter if you chop the throttle open. The bike still has stock exhaust with cats in each muffler so after those are removed/cored out I will mess with it more. The autotune def makes it run better all around through.

 

[bbcmat]

Lean out your AFRs in the flameout zone - it's too rich. The 13.2 AFR "rule of thumb" is most applicable plus minus 20% rpm of torque peak.

IMO

MAT

 

[nocontrol]

Lean out your AFRs in the flameout zone - it's too rich. The 13.2 AFR "rule of thumb" is most applicable plus minus 20% rpm of torque peak.

IMO

MAT

Tried up to -10 in that whole area, but didn't seem to help. Like I said, I will mess with it more once I gut the exhausts, I don't want to spend too much time on it now since I will be gutting them after this weekend. But yes it did seem to be very rich, it was originally idling at 11.5-11.8.

 

[brock]

Hey bbcmat, you're onto something there!

Fitted new pump and my TE510 starts much better and runs better after stalling (ran like a bag of sh1t on restart before) but still have flameout.

I tweaked the fueling again, 1=105, 2=103, 3=100. (was 1-101 2-115 3-100 after dyno) Don't go in 5's or 10's its to much. 1 hear 1 there whilst trying the throttle.
The flameout has gone!

I guess I have richened it a few at the bottom but leaned out the mid.

On the dyno the fueling was great but in the real world the bottom end blip was terrible. I found that lessening the gap between the values of 1 & 2 improved it no end.
It starts much quicker in gear after a stall too!

 

[HUSKYnXJnWI]

I was able to work with Ibeat2 last night for the first time- I set the tps to be 100.2 which has a closed throttle voltage of 1.011 volts- the hardstop is set at about 3 turns from bottoming the throttle plate to accomplish that-
I was concerned about the flame out- and being rich with my "db silencer' so with that installed- I decreased co1 a little (97) and ran it some- much better- then I decreased co2 to (97)- Even Better- I left C03 at (100)- as I need more time and Open areas to judge- I will continue to Play- I love this****************************************! It is easy convenient and the bike's performance change was instant-
Oh- I could not recreate the flameout-last night- and I tried in my woods. I also ripped it up the street- no issues in the area's I adjusted- but I found a small sputter- that may have been the revlimiter- in either case- I don't ride the way I test. Should be pretty happy- and likely to find more improvements!
I have our dual sport event (2-days) this weekend headed up in a few hours- so I will be busy- but having my bike running right and quiet is nice! I will bring the laptop up and make changes as I get a chance....
I would not be surprised if I go leaner than I am (with Dbkiller)- but for now co1-97,co2-97,co3-100.

Thanks everyone!