Oil Weights

EXACTLY

So, you guys that run ATF, do your clutch plates still stick together with that type/weight oil? I use 75 wt BelRay per spec. sheet info. ( 86 400 enduro)

Sorry to bring an old thread up on a friday evening but I am scratching my head on an oil choice available this weekend..

Unfortunately I read up on the oil subject on this forum before pouring anything in the cases which has made me less confident...

If someone would have asked me I would have said don't worry, just try it out, but now I am pending between oils myself. Anyone wanting to guide me for the first start?

If there are any swedes out there: - if you have experience from an oil available at weekend-open stores- let me know !

Had to put a pic in on the bike (430 cr). It's 95% finished (street configuration on the pic), will post when finished next week.

thanks
Lars

OK, here is my take.

Not all oils are rated with the same scale. Bel Ray (and other motorcycle specific "transmission" oils like Spectro and Honda HP Trans) that are listed as 80w are in fact the same viscosity as 10-40 4T oil. Bel Ray Gear Saver, Spectro, Honda HP Trans etc are basically 10-40 4T oil relabeled for 2T transmissions and the price doubled. 80-90w GL4 gear oil for differentials in cars, which lots of bikes used in the 70s, is much higher viscosity when COLD but when it gets hot is gets a thin as water, even thinner than ATF. People used rear end gear oil back then because there was nothing better. ATF is around 15-20w and holds its viscosity even a extremely high temps, and is designed from the start to be used in transmissions and wet clutches, auto transmissions have clutches very much like the ones in our bikes. Not all ATF is the same however, if you use ATF only us type F, the reason being Ford designed the "slip" of those years transmissions into the clutch of the transmission, where on all other transmissions the fluid has those dreaded friction modifiers to cause the "slip" between shifts. Modern (since around '98-'00) car oils also have friction modifiers in them that allow cars to get better mileage, bad for wet clutches, and they have all the zinc removed so as to not damage catalytic converters, zinc is a cushioning agent for transmissions, however diesel oils (Rotella, Dello 15-40 etc) do not have those friction modifiers and they have lots of zinc in them. Tractor fluid, like ATF, is designed from the outset to be used with both gears in transmissions and in wet clutches, and its inexpensive. Those pieces of equipment that tractor fluid goes in cost a LOT of money and you can be sure that the fluids that are going into them are good products.

So what do I use? I have used ATF type F for almost 35 years in everything from a '72 Penton 100 to my '01 Honda CR500, but recently I started using tractor fluid. There is nothing special about Husky clutches, old or new, nor any other clutch. A clutch is a clutch, and motorcycle clutches and transmissions, especially in off road bikes, are under relatively light load compared to, say, the clutch and transmission in a 3/4 ton diesel truck. My next choice would be tractor fluid, then diesel 15-40, then "motorcycle" transmission oil, then car oil, and 80-90 GL4 gear oil last.

But thats just me, I'm not going to tell anyone what to use, and I'm not saying of you use something I dont like that you are wrong. Everyone should use what they feel comfortable with, as Philbilly said earlier in this thread, using NO oil is probably the only wrong oil to use.

fatal mistake.... he will be more confused than ever. i runwhatever is handy, changeit a lot. have always hadgood results from light wt 80 90 gear oil.

Following that dissertation, im going atf f!!!Thanks for that

Kartwheel, Thanks, for your post. I ended up going to the local oil depot and bought one big can of straight SAE30 and another of tractor fluid. I Put the SAE30 in the husky now and I'll see how it works out. If it doesn't I'll switch to the tractor fluid and use the SAE30 in the lawn movers etc..

Thanks
Lars

I'm using the tractor fluid right now in my two "modern" bikes, '92 Honda CR500 and '99 YZ125. Those transmission parts are easy get so I'm testing it on them. I learned of the tractor fluid on a CR500 site and it does work very well so far. The clutch in both bikes seems to be more consistent and you can get it in 1 gal, 2 gal and 5 gal sizes.

One time I tried Dexron/Mercon 3 in the gear box of my 87 430cr. The clutch seemed to have poor range. Like it was slippy then grabbed. The previous owner of the bike mentioned he used non detergent 30wt. It has been a long while since I have ridden the bike and don't remember what I put in there last. I own an automotive transmission shop which is why I tried the d/m3---cause I usually have a couple hundred gallons on hand. I haven't tried type F. While it is known that type F will make an automatic shift firmer, type F does not have the lubricational qualities to run an overdrive trans long term. Type F was designed for 3 speed trans where top gear was 1:1 ratio----in direct drive no gears are actually turning as the whole geartrain is locked together and turns as one big shaft. When overdrive trans came out was when d/m3 came out. Both Ford and GM used that spec. It has the properties to allow long term load on the gear sets. In my cars I've swapped back and forth between F and d/m3 and never felt much difference. It probably is a situation where F is maginally firmer than d/m3. Like when you have that extra 5 hp that is overcoming the holding capacity and the clutch is sliding on when using d/m3. Perhaps that's when the type F might make a noticable improvement by firming up the slip. A lot of the racers use the hygard or hytrans tractor fluid with good reports. I have no experiance with it. Not too much into drag racing anymore.
If you want to experiment with different ATF's, Honda ATF-Z1 is good stuff along with Mopar ATF+4. Those both have different frictional charactoristics compared to d/m3. Filling an electronic Chrysler trans or a Honda trans with d/m3 will cause it to shudder on shifts. perhaps one of these fluid might give a good clutch feel. also, both fluids are of high quality and can long term loads.
So, I haven't answered any questions and only stirred the pot on which oil to use. When I next change the fluid in my 430 I will try a different ATF and report back. It might be a while as I might not be riding until next year. But, it is some insight from a different angle that may help confuse or decipher what to use. the one thing I can say is that nondetergent 30wt did perform better than d/m3 atf.

Mark

Thats actually good information Mark, thanks!

The reason I have used ATF type F for so long is that is what KTM spec'd it for their bikes all the way back to '72, and they spec'd it up until they started partnering with companies like Motorex. I started using it in '81 or so, used it in all kinds of bikes since. The manual for my '84 KTM125 says Valvoline ATF Type A, which is odd since they hadnt made Type A for years before '84, it had whale oil in it as a friction modifier.


Brian

what actually is tractor fluid?

The transmissions, differentials, transfer cases and PTO clutches for tractors us a fluid that is similar to ATF but higher viscosity. Tractors have wet clutches in the PTO drives and some have wet brakes which are in the transmission case and are nothing but a clutch stack just like in a motorcycle. The Kawasaki Prairie ATVs also have a similar wet brake, which is in the differential, it puts braking in the driveline instead of at the end of the axles in the wheels just like in a tractor.

There are a few very informative posts here. Just to clarify pertaining to the last one. I have used tractor transmission and hydraulic fluid for quite a while. I have bought a few quarts of belray dedicated motorcycle transmission fluid too. hyguard is a john deere brand of tractor transmission and hydraulic fluid. Actually if it gets below -30 degrees, centigrade and Fahrenheit being the same at -40 of probably on either scale would be close enough there is a light hy gurard to use. I prefer a dry tractor clutch however the at least one model of tractor I have could come with a reverser transmission which is a wet clutch. There are hydrostatic transmissions infinitely variable transmissions just need to be a little careful stating tractors have wet clutches. It is tractor transmission and hydraulic fluid because there is a hydraulic pump on most any tractor over 1000 pounds in weight and I suspect there are additives as the transmission is the reservoir for the hydraulic fluid. They also generally have a filter larger than the one on the engine for the hydraulic/transmission fluid. John deere dealers generally are open until noon on Saturday.

The best thing (opinion) would be the thing with the most protection for the little gear on the back of the clutch assembly and the faces of third gear on the input shaft.

I use atf in my little pump oil can, it doesn't look or smell like hy guard or motorcycle specific transmission fluid.

fran

Yup, so far I am sold on the tractor fluid. It does not drag when cold like motorcycle or 4T oil and you can feel with your fingers that it is more viscous than ATF. You have to figure, those tractors and farm implements get huge loads on their transmissions and PTO drives. I originally heard about tractor fluid on a Honda CR500 site, several of those guys ride them on very slow single track and the clutches get so hot they fade badly. Those that have used it say that fade has completely gone away.

Not picking on tractor fluid or anyone that uses it. Seems no matter what kind of vehicle, someone is always saying how good tractor fluid is. Genuine golden bonafide tractor fluid. The drink Snapple claims to be made from the best stuff on earth. Is it possible Snapple contains tractor fluid? Perhaps we can try tractor fluid on Cheerios? Well, lets all start with our gearboxes and inch it up from there. Soon we'll have tractor fluid in our veins. The tractor fluid conspiracy. Vote tractor fluid for progress. Forget baby oil, use tractor fluid. Don't go green, go tractor fluid! Buy one tractor fluid for the price of two and get one free.

Well, like I said, I'm only using it in my modern bikes at this point. The one thing I can say without question, the clutch in my YZ125 has faded with everything else I have used but not with tractor fluid. I have never had the clutch fade on my CR500 so I cant tell much difference in that bike compared to ATF. I have to admit, when I first read about tractor fluid on that CR500 site, I thought it was a prank.

Yeah, it does sound a little silly at first. But, I've been hearing for years how it outperforms what is high performance, specified and expensive. Our gearboxes only take around a quart, so it's no big investment for anyone that wants to try it.

ATF isn't far behind the tractor fluid for do-all either. Have a 39 Ford 9N that I parked in the garage after the last snow storm last winter. This spring I couldn't get it to start; not even a pop on starter fluid. A post on a tractor forum told me my rings were probably stuck (do to old gas) and I had no compression. He told me to pour an ounce of ATF in each plug hole, let it sit, then do it again a day later. On the 3rd day the darn thing started right up after about 3 turn overs and has been running great ever since!
I have run ATF in my vintage Trials bikes, but use Bel-Ray 80 weight in my 73 Husky. Might try ATF next oil change.

I use the 80 - 90 wt in my '70's bikes.. plain old gear lube.. I can get you the specifics, I remember I posted it when I was getting the 400 ready to run.. I re-use the oil and pour it along the fence line to keep the weeds down. I've also come across a supply of used oil from the the old electric transformers. That oil keeps the weeds down too

I use olive oil, sometimes a touch of garlic. I like when the woods smell like an Italian restaurant!