Discussion in 'EFI/carb' started by bbcmat, Aug 3, 2009.
I'm definitely going to check it out!
Please be sure to document what you are doing with the throttle stop screw so you can go back if you need to. The air (idle) screw interacts with the throttle stop, and the ibeat TPS setting also interacts with that... assuming you are not recalibrating the TPS setting with an ibeat.
Glad to hear that seems to have worked for you. If you can, you should get the TPS re-zeroed.
My logic on this procedure was based on the 2 things:
1- not knowing if the butterfly contacts the throttle body if the stop was too far out.
2- With an air bypass screw designed to set the air flow for idle, the butterfly should probably be mostly closed at idle.
A 1/4 to 1/2 turn seemed like a good starting point. I'd like to see what the factory procedure is. Maybe the throttle body come from Mikuni already adjust and Husky factory doesn't adjust it.
If you take the tps voltages- you can find the original setting easily enough. Absolutely-all three work together: that's why it points to the fact that the throttle adjustment on mine was off- since my Air Bypass screw was 4.25 turns out with an idle of 1850.
If this weekend I have a problem- in the woods it will be easy to adjust back (my throttle stop adjust was 3 full turns open).
As far as the TPS adjustment now being off: you can see I kept asking Mat about this fact. I invested a bit of confidence into his answers. I do wonder if the slight TPS zero point being off is part of the positive effects. Because if the zero point is say 3% after you start twisting the throttle- you are opening more air for the same amount of TPS for that throttle position. ? I think I am confusing myself though to early to explain what I mean.... Anyway as Mat said the current TPS zero is below the zero point so closed is closed- but the tps thinks its closed when it is not- However it was OPEN when the TPS thought it was CLOSED because the Throttle Position was off....?
I am going to ride the H out of it this weekend in 100% single track which is pretty new trail- so my off Idle response will be tested all weekend- I'll report back. I will also be trying my modified American DB Killer (I had bought the wrong one) which is now 6 inches long(welded on some stainless tube), as well as using my stock sparky.
You are always there to share alot of knowledge about this efi new voodoo.
I wonder if My stock setting coincides with the use of that highly restrictive air circulation thing that comes stock inside the air filter- maybe this original Throttle position works best on a non Powered up bike....
The ecu is a computer that is running an algorithm which someone wrote that may or may not take into account certain sensor inputs - that depends entirely on how the code is written.
If the ibeat has been used to calibrate the TPS when the bikes throttle was closed, then the throttle stop was adjusted to make the throttle 'even more closed' then the computer (ecu) thinks it has negative throttle position... which should not be possible. I've got no idea how the software in the ecu act under those circumstances.
"The computer (ecu) thinks it has a negative throttle position"
I believe this statement is incorrect - positions below the zero point are seen as zero in the digital mechanical control systems I have worked with. The Ibeat calibration routine follows a common set/span/set routine. A hard point is made a standard (in this case wide open throttle as 100.2% throttle), a span is applied to it (maximum digital steps times voltage per step as per software). and the RESULT is the second end point (idle position). Small adjustments to envelope other variables are managed by the idle air bypass. (the largest being the unit specific fuel volume vs applied duty cycle, and system fuel pressure)
The closed throttle plate position is set to achieve a desired wide open throttle position. Once that point is found, then the zero position is accepted in software. If you do not follow this order of operations - then your electronic wide open throttle position will not meet the 100.2% (for 450s/510s) specification.
These are my thoughts based on the setup procedure as I have understood it.
I'd guess this to be the case, since they have white paint on the nut/ screw.
I hooked up Ibeat to my bike yesterday. 2008 TE510 with power-up kit and the oxygen sensor installed (temporarily). My bike has always idled too slow and I was trying to get it to idle at around 1800.
The original 0% throttle was 965mv. I set the air screw at 2.75 turns out from closed. In order to get my idle to 1800 rpm with this setting, I ended up loosening the locknut and turning in the allen screw about 2 full turns. It is idling at 1800 rpm now, but at 0% throttle it is reading 1135mv. My wide open throttle is now only reading about 96%.
I don't know what I am doing wrong. How do I get it to idle faster without opening up the stop on the butterfly. The directions with Ibeat leave a little to be desired.
With iBeat connected and your bike idling what is the injector pulse width and rpm? I can compare them to what I have.
There isn't much data on iBeat values for troubleshooting things like bad injector or low fuel pressure that could cause poor performance. You don't want to start adjusting other parts of the system to compensate for a deficiency else where in the system.
I will hook it back up this week sometime and take a bunch of notes. I keep hearing that the wide open throttle position should be 100.2%, but I have not found this anywhere in the manuals. I have looked in the repair manual and the ibeat manual.
For the 08 TE450 - with o2 sensor installed idle should be set about1650 rpm with idle bypass set 3-2.75 turns out.
Once the 02 sensor comes off and the power up plug is plugged into the harness - the power up fuel map will cause the idle to jump up to 1800-1900.(as per my 09 510 and my buds 08 450)
I don't believe you will achieve 1800 rpm with the 02 sensor installed AND reach the 100.2% wide full open throttle reading. The WFO - span = too small an initial throttle opening.
The 100.2% came from two sources - factory trained mechanic I spoke with, and a set procedure I read at thumper talk.
My last post sounded too formal.
Again - this is info I have read, experiments I've done on MY bike, or info I've confirmed on MY bike. This is not a reference post based on some sort of insider info or similiar.
uptite adjustment results
after owning my 08 te 450 for over a year now ,i finnaly got to take it in for an i beat adjustment.[power up kit installed]george at uptite found the low setting [fb1 ?] at 106 was set to 102,the 2nd and 3rd settings were at 100 and left that way.my bike didn't run poorly,i just wanted more power just off idle.after the adjustment it is slightly improved,but not dramatclily.I believe this is about the best this bike will run without a diffrent exhaust.after riding motocross bikes for years i thought this bike was a bit slow,but its actually a lot more torquier,and slower reving,witch is really what this bike is designed to be.
Do you know what method or logic was used to determine the value of 102 for FB1?
from what i understand[which isnt much]the i beat was used
well as an update after doing this mod:
I ran really really tight woods for 20 miles- 90'F outside and the bike and I were running hot- the bike flamed out numerous times most predictably on uphills. If I let it cool off at the bottom of a hill it died on and then tried again I had absolutely no issue. There was no escaping the tight woods though- hours under 10 mile an hour average. In this environment- it would be hard to tell anything from- I hadn't ridden this particular trail prior to the "mod". It would sputter like it was hitting the rev limiter and even with clutch use... This was a very heat abusive trail- and with 13/47 gearing it required too much clutching....
I am surprised how sensitive the bike seemed to heat- even though this was probably on the extreme side- which it won't see often. This was tighter than most enduro's I have ran- maybe not quite as technical- but about the same... Usually there's at least some open sections to get some air through the radiators... The fan seemed to run the whole time...
The next day I ran more open trail with whoop sections- it ran flawless and had a strong bottom- no flameouts whatsoever.
I think the throttle is set correct at 1/4-1/2 as suggested- I may benefit from another TPS adjustment after making this adjustment-
That is my experience exactly! The bike does not like running hot in general and that's when I get most of my flame outs and noticeable decrease in performance...hmmm. Maybe a second radiator fan that stays on all the time. I'm thinking about putting my radiator louvers onto my Motosportz Radiator guards with zip ties to improve. What other tricks are there to keep the bike running cooler?
I don't even have rad guards- (I need some at some point though)
If the way my bike ran in that tight stuff was normal- I would be pretty frustrated. It ran like it just did not know what to do with that kinda heat- yet I wouldn't have thought that the efi system would not be able to correct for running at these temps. I wish I knew what the bike's running temps were on average on that ride. My buddy with a Ktm 200 didn't have an issue but that's a different beast- he said his exc450 would have surely steamed and over heated- But said that he has never had a running problem in those circumstances. Which points to the fact that why would a semi adjusting efi system have more issues than a non adjusting carb= if they both run fine when in normal circumstances....
There are two ways to look at it-
Needs improved cooling for situations where the cooling system is tested. ?
Fuel system should adjust and lean the mixture adequately. PCV?
The EFI is definitely compensating for the heat - and (IMO) no fixed fuel map tweak (via Ibeat or a power commander) is going to eliminate the downside effect of that. The compensation occurs BEFORE the fan starts and can be 95% eliminated with a idle air bypass tweak (1/8 to ¼ turn in from optimal at normal operating temp on my bike).
After a hot stall, if the engine doesn’t immediately fire with a tap on the starter (in gear, clutch in) and jump to a controlled idle, turn in the idle air 1/8 turn at a time until it does. You’re close if it start immediately but struggles a bit to reach idle rpm. Give it another 1/8th. I use a paint dot on the 12o’clock position of my thumbscrew to give me a ref point (dot on top = 3 turns out). I found it’s easy to overcompensate jumping ¼ turn at a time – mine runs soft off-idle when I do and stalls are not eliminated.
Note that the idle rpm hasn’t changed – you’re just compensating for the EFI hot enrichment parameter. The idle will increase later when the system cools down.
Since this issue occurs consistently and predictably, I believe it is not a problem with a component (ignition coil etc) that is getting cooked sitting over the engine with no airflow to cool it off.
To minimize the issue,
I found the fuel brands that ran best in the bike. The fuel that ran the best with the 02 sensor in also ran best with it out and the power up plug installed. My original choice (Sunoco 94 oct) would cause the bike to buck and cough with the sensor in – changing to Esso / PetroCanada 91 oct eliminated this immediately and made it run as good as it ever would with the sensor in. (ie like a weak 350cc with slow throttle movements, and a 500cc with quick throttle movements)
I deliberately misadjusted the idle hard stop to bridge the rich stumble off idle. Small changes to the idle air bypass thumbscrew now made a noticeable effect to the off-idle throttle response and has become a good tuning tool.
I hard wired a switch to manually operate the fan, use the fan when things tighten up (under 3rd gear) and leave it on during quick breaks on the trail. It draws less than 2amps of current and using it eliminates 90% of the need to touch the idle air bypass from it’s optimum position at normal open trail engine temps. I am not interested in tweaking the screw when things tighten up - or having a hot stall on a sloppy hillside to remind me to do so. It’s fuel injected !!
My next step to try an improved coolant to help keep the temps down and stay away from the EFI hot enrichment– either water wetter and distilled water (I have it on the shelf from my drag car) or the “Engine Ice” coolant I’ve read about. It would be easy to fool the EFI with a false temperature input – but I will not defeat the overtemp protection until every other option I know of has been exhausted.