FE/FC 4cs Puzzle Solved

[.B2]

How much K-Tech setup?

The forks were $535au which included springs & replacing every shim scraper seal & busch with all new K-Tech manufactured parts.
There's no major mods like gold valves, base adjusters or bastardised internals from another type of fork, but at the same time it's not just a quick shim shuffle & sent on my way.
When I was running base adjusters along with all the other mods I could go 3 or 4 clicks & struggle to find any difference, now it's just 1 click makes a difference.
The shock bladder conversion was $350 with no spring supply necessary.

I'm not just trying to drum up business for my tuner as I've never once mentioned the company that did the work, but I honestly believe that K-Tech as a brand has tested & have the 4cs sorted.

 

[chrisek]

Hi .B2 can I get contact details for tuner. Thanks

 

[HusqRacr]

I Finally quit being lazy and installed Race Tech gold valves and base adjusters in my FC450. I chose this route since its low cost and I can go in easily enough and make changes if need be. Haven't rode it yet but initial impression is really good in the fact I can go in on Rebound, and it actually does something. I like that they re-engineered the bottom adjuster to be more countersunk. For kicks, I swapped caps. Hope this fixes the jackhammer (hands off the bars)effect when the track gets rough. Report back after next MX ride...

 

[Husq-a-daygo]

I Finally quit being lazy and installed Race Tech gold valves and base adjusters in my FC450. I chose this route since its low cost and I can go in easily enough and make changes if need be. Haven't rode it yet but initial impression is really good in the fact I can go in on Rebound, and it actually does something. I like that they re-engineered the bottom adjuster to be more countersunk. For kicks, I swapped caps. Hope this fixes the jackhammer (hands off the bars)effect when the track gets rough. Report back after next MX ride...

Hey Ben if that doesn't fix it up to your satisfaction, it's a common easy mod to drill a 1 mm hole in the mid valve...

 

[HusqRacr]

Race Tech had me do that as well, let ya know how it goes! Hoping to hit Pala tomorrow. Bummer I missed the Mexico trip. next time for sure!

 

[Big Timmy]

I finally took my 4CS to "Don" at ZR1 Suspension in Tucson, by appointment on Friday. It was snowing here. I had the Forks stripped, Race Tech adjustable Gold base valves (Hydro stop) installed. These adjustable base valves are Part number (FACB M3010001). Without these Gold base valves and if removal of the check valve needles from both of the base valves is done than that's what converts the adjusters to both be rebound on top. That idea was out of the question for me.

The installation I had done however. Race Tech just came out with these parts a few months ago. So the open chamber mod with comp on the bottom is not the case in my situation and the adjusters remain as they were stock. On top. These adjustable base valves turn only about 3 full turns. I am at 1 1/2 turns out and will leave them that way.

This is an Open Chamber modification. So lets get that straight.

These adjustable gold base valves flow fluid in both directions. This was demonstrated to me clearly, stock part next to the Race Tech piece right on a table with a can of simple contact cleaner with a spray nozzle. The adjustable base valve kit combines a gold valve and of course a set of new shim stacks as well. It has the adjuster for it in the base of the fork leg where everyone else is getting there compression adjuster valve relocated.

I'm glad I waited until this kit was sorted out and available and it was a small price to pay to still have the Comp and Rebound adjusters still on the top of the fork legs. Not the other way around.

The Purpleish-blue 8mm X-ring which "Stillwell" says he sees failures on. Is outright removed from where it rides on the DLC coated damper rod, it's no longer used and this is critical to the installation of this complete mod.

The original 4CS cartridge will now flow some oil. Which keeps the stock set up from blowing through the midrange of the stroke. It's unbelievable. I went with the 2 stage compression valving. A low speed shim stack no, cL 1036 Combo, a Crossover stack no. cLX1016 and the Highspeed shim stack no. cH155. Moving up to the mid valves, They were also replaced with a new pair of Race Tech Gold mid valves. There are hundreds of combinations to choose from so without standing there, talking and meeting directly with your tuner. I'd say it's very easy to be way off. Which no amount of clicker adjustment is going to compensate for.

It is of note to mention the compression adjuster controls the lowest speed and affects the entire range. Another words the closer to maximum damping ( Full Clockwise) in. The more effect 1 click makes. So for example 3 to 2 clicks out from all the way in, has much more effect than 13 to 14 clicks out. So if your valving needs to be stiffer. You need to go to a stack combination to the right and up on the valving chart. If they are too stiff and can't be adjusted to your liking with the clickers then take them apart and go the opposite direction, to the left on the chart included with the Race Tech Gold valve kits instructions and change the shim stack accordingly to a softer setting. Again this is fairly easy to do after installation and you know what you are doing. No need to list every damned shim, it's diameter, thickness and in what order. Just Shuffling them around randomly just don't do it for me. Having a record and chart is key to know what is going on and no conjecture is involved.

Knowing what to do on the shim stacks is as simple as reading the instructions and talking with your tuner what your issues are. Sending them across the country and not ever really getting to talk about those issues directly except for feeling out a chart and a few phone calls is a total compromise. So having a face to face talk for the selected shim stacks to go with that Gold Valve install isn't a guessing game and really isn't rocket science.

Its an open chamber fork now. But it now has 3 adjustments.

My rebound adjuster is set at 12 clicks out. Compression was the same at 12 clicks out. After the first 25 miles I went in 2 more clicks to 10 clicks out. It is now very compliant. I will probably leave it alone, from there. Before adjustments on either side just seemed to do nothing. Those 2 clicks were immediately noticed now.

It still has the Comp adjuster on the left and the Rebound adjuster on the right. How this works from the top was also clearly explained and demonstrated to me. A new set of seals and wipers were installed filled with Maxima oil set at 75mm at the fully compressed position, only after pumping the fork a few times to get the air out and the oil level to settle.

I weigh about 230 lbs. I already had .48 springs installed at time of purchase when I bought the FE 501. I actually removed one of the thick nylon preload spacers on both sides below the spring to get the proper spring preload.

I rode the bike yesterday in the mud and mild snow and it holds itself up much better. I took it down the roughest rocky single and 2 tracks I could take it. Places I have not yet been in 1100 miles out where I ride. Deliberately slamming it to see what an improvement it was. I am astounded. It now doesn't seem to stack on square edged bumps and rocks. It doesn't dive under hard braking. In fact when it did that a few times before I had this done. I can more than once remember a semi panic tap of the brake pedal actually stalled the bike a few times in 5th gear at speed. Simply because I was braking so hard that the rear wheel was actually leaving the ground and it locked the engine up and had to be clutched and bump started to get it restarted again. Something that will get your attention rather quickly. I don't think that will ever happen anymore. The former tendency of the aforementioned "hard braking" will hardly be necessary any more to go through or across something I see coming up that would have formerly caused me to get tossed, eat it or throw me off line completely. I thought the GT216AA tire was good before. Hell it has 50 hard hours on it now and it will change lines better now than it would when it was brand new, with the stock 4CS. I have a new one reserved on the waiting list at ZipTy as soon as they come in. I hope that's later this month as expected.

The bikes Suspension now makes it a totally new riding experience. It's that damned good. Very confidence inspiring. It totally transformed this motorcycle. In a way, I'm glad I waited. But I am also lucky I had no earlier incidents either riding the forks stock that long with out having them done earlier on. It was literally dangerous at times. Now I know. They are terrible stock and it only took one 4 hour ride. Actually the first 6 miles in, I knew it and called "Don" on my cell phone and thanked him before I really put the bike through its paces yesterday. I can't wait to ride it again. It now has about 62 hours time on it. It has been nice reading all these threads to learn what was going on and what not to do or compromise. Everyone was assuming my being in AZ, I would have gone to "Stillwell" and wanted me to give my input and a ride report. Well here it is. The ride report that is. as for going to Stillwell, I decided against that and said "No Thanks". Trust me I talked to everybody more than once. It was the same old story. Just "Fill out the online information paper work application and send them to us we will take good care of you". Cha-Ching!!

It took me nearly 90 minutes to just clean the mud off of it last evening. Some Sticky black mud I got into. I could hardly see the links of the drive chain because all the creek washes were flowing crazily with the melting snow here. I never had that happen yet living here. It works well and will only get better.

"Don" at "ZR1 suspension.com" was very gracious to explain every little detail to me and let me stand there and talk his ear off and ask questions while he did this for me. I was there at about 11:00 am and was on my way back home with them in my high powered rifle case by 2:00 pm. They were on the bike 15 minutes after I got home from 130 miles away and I was going up the street already with one of my helmets on Friday afternoon.. EASY PEASY.

I'm bringing him my WP 5018 Trax shock next. I'm taking it off my G450X. I'm having the eyelet end removed from the shock and swapping it to the Trax unit with the Husky style forked clevis end, put on the shaft to fit it to my FE 501 and I'll reinstall my revalved Ohlin's shock back onto the G450. It just sits anyway. That's next. The rotation of the reservoirs orientation is the same so it will go on the Husky with the proper shaft end fitted. At that time he will also install an Xtrig preload adjuster at the same time. Iv'e had sitting for quite awhile too.

It was nice to exchange some extra springs I had laying around too for 100.00 off the labor bill as well. "Don" can use them and I couldn't even give them away practically. Total cost was $635.00 minus the $100.00 bucks he gave me for my spare springs. The double set of gold valves and the SKF seals and wipers and all his supplies were $445.00 alone. This is money well spent. I can now attest to you that its the best money I have ever spent on this bike, that's for sure.

This 4CS thread from day one is something I have avoided up until now. As it is such a subjective issue.

There are other alternatives out there. Do what is best for you using known parts and working with a local tuner. In my opinion, that is the best bet. Go to someone who works with you. Not some stranger, sitting in a shop at a work bench you will never meet and doesn't really care about your forks or even know what you look like or what you actually need other than the information you provided them in the paper work you filled out previously. That paperwork after all he may not even be reading. I mean, who knows if he even is reading that paper work you provided? Bottom line is you don't. Which at most places is done online prior to you going down to ship your forks a few states away?

Do this with someone local and who knows the riding conditions of your area. Or you will be doing them over and over as many people have already done.

 

[HusqRacr]

Rode MX today, night and day difference. No harshness and it stayed high in the stroke through the rough stuff. Bike was fully predictable on jump take off and landings even at the end when it was chopped up. Probably going to go with a stiffer compression stack since i ended the day with the compression adjusters almost closed. Happy with the results for my skill level and budget

 

[bowser]

Wow big timmy you bought a lot of parts you don't need.
Why have adjustable base valves for comp and also comp clicker up top as per OEM? how much LS bleed do you need.

I valved a mates 16 4cs a couple of weeks ago with nothing more than shim shuffle and heavier check spring and they are equally as good as my race tech converted forks which have a lot of time and money invested in. The 16 forks are definitely a step in the right direction and don't need much to work sensational.

 

[Big Timmy]

Wow Bowser, I'm not a cheap skate. I'm riding the bike, I think I know what I need. After 1100 miles here in the high AZ desert at 4000 to 5000 ft. elevation. I don't know where you ride. So I won't guess like you are doing to tell you what you need. Thanks. Now you know why I have stayed out of this long thread.

I never said I was an expert like you may be? Is that the case. Everyone's an expert. Right?

I will repeat then. These Race Tech adjustable Base Valves ONLY TURN ( and adjust) 3 FULL TURNS.

Did you read that part Bowser ? Apparently not?

You also said:

{quote}

"I valved a mates 16 4cs a couple of weeks ago with nothing more than shim shuffle and heavier check spring and they are equally as good as my race tech converted forks which have a lot of time and money invested in. The 16 forks are definitely a step in the right direction and don't need much to work sensational".
{end quote}.

2017 and 2018 should be even better.

Again I will say, "It is and was money well spent". For me.

I could have held onto that money a little longer.

"Unlike my Pecker though, it won't grow in my hand".

Thanks for the tip though.

I have however read everyone of these posts for months and have done my homework. I had to bypass about 7 out of 10 of them while doing my homework. As they were all BS, conversations back and forth to one another. (PMs are good for that sort of thing). Furthermore I can't hardly remember if any that listed actual part numbers or much valuable information and probably 90% of those fork mods were done as I said "not face to face" from someone they never met.

What works for you, doesn't necessarily work for me or many others.

The technical merit of 7 out of 10 of these posts helps absolutely nobody.

Have a nice day.

 

[bowser]

Judging by your reply I guess I upset you and you are a little defensive to justify your heavy investment.

yes I know RT bases have 3 turns (I have a set fitted), 3 turns may still be the equivalent of a competitors 40 clicks depending on the needle profile of the adjuster. However, my point was you have comp LS bleed on the base and also the top using the OEM adjuster, they both are doing the same thing so either they both are open bugger all or one is closed allowing the other to do the work. you would be better off removing the check valve and allowing that top clicker to be rebound adjustment as you currently don't have the ability for that leg.

I understand the benefits of using RT g2r valves but why the extra expense of the RT mid valve? if yours is a 16 model, want to sell me your old mid valves?

not having a go at you but their seems to be a lot of tuners making big dollars off these forks selling parts they don't need. Explain why Corey at ProTune can make them work for bugger all and others want you to spend upwards of $1000. this was my point about my mates 16 forks, his work extremely well for a total of less than $40. Compare them to my forks which have RT bases, g2r valves, kreft mids and a lot of revalves and mine are not much better than his. Even my kyb SSS forks I had fitted were not as good.

 

[Big Timmy]

Sounds like you have a bit invested in your forks too. Why did you spend the expense of the Kreft mid valves? and have to keep doing " a lot of revalves"??

I don't need to experiment or do any revalves. They work great. A total day and night difference. The guy who did them when I asked him how he got into the suspension business told me he used to work for "Race Tech". Has worked for several pro's as well and has been on his own now for about 8 years. He has tons of records of all his customers. Showed me drawers full of different tapered hydrostop bullets for the 4CS from its many iterations as it has evolved. His records of all his KTM and Husky 4CS customers is staggering. Those records include: There size, type of riding, bike model, weights, settings and valve combinations. He knows what he is doing.

He rides the same areas of South Eastern, AZ. Just like me. So he knows the terrain and does suspension services on $40,000 Razors and other Custom side by sides also. Did I say He knows what he is doing?

He came highly recommended. From everyone I know that rides bikes as well as right from the local Tucson KTM/Husky Dealership also. Lots of happy customers. He must be doing something right.

Most people have their forks done by him right at the local racetracks where he goes every weekend and brings his large mobile trackside suspension service trailer. So I guess a few of these riders that recommended him to me, haven't actually been to his house and worked with him.

He does vintage restoration work as well and has quite a collection of late 60s and early 70's vintage twin shock dirt bikes lined up in his garage and in his house that are like brand new, everyone of them. So I think he has probably been at this for a while. He's not a blow wind at all and is very humble. He doesn't really need to advertise.

He apparently hit the sweet spot on mine first time. I'm not messing with the base valve setting. I'll leave it at 1 1/2 turns.

The bike is a '15. Not a '16 and I didn't spend anywhere near $1000.

"Stillwell" wants more than what I paid total and says he doesn't even fit a kit and I would have learned nothing.

My forks had just above 60 hours of tons of jagged rocks and mountain riding on them so I wanted them serviced anyway. New seals and wipers while I was at it, get the contaminated oil out of there.

Nothing was drilled, modified, or adapted, etc. I have all the old parts and they will be thrown in the box of all my other stock parts.

 

[bowser]

I had the kreft mids sitting there because I tried using kreft setup first and didn't like it.
I then started playing with the RT setup based of support from Terry Hay and ended up with something that worked pretty good.
all the revalves are because that's the type of guy I am, I'm always in search of something better. I can't be happy with something without tinkering to understand if it is actually the best it can be which is why I installed the kreft mid valves and are in the process of refining the system to suit them. knowing what I know now I wouldn't go out and buy the kreft mids as I don't see the performance gain value which is why I questioned you buying the RT mid valves.

same reason I installed the SSS cartridges in my 4cs legs and later installed the whole SSS fork, purely to see how good they are compared to my 4cs. I won't lose money when I go to sell them so no financial outlay lost. The SSS forks have a good reputation so are a good comparison for what works, ultimately the 4cs work better.

 

[robertaccio]

Factory A kit WP cone valve forks work the best.
just ask every race team that races KTMs and Huskys, we all just get the simple oem built cheap to manufacture designs and the best of what we think are the best modded forks.
as for shocks..I know this is not a rear thread...I got mine, a fully serviced by WP factory services WP Trax shock...at least one end of my te300 is as good as those pesky factory guys get.

 

[Big Timmy]

ATTACH=full]64031[/ATTACH] I hear you Robert. Rear susp. thread or not. Here's a picture of your own bike in the thumbnail and the proper end I need above. They are trying to tell me the Trax unit itself is not removable from the shaft? Then how would they do a Trax unit disassembly service then? They are trying to tell me the entire Trax unit is part of the entire piston rod and shaft assembly. Which I believe is BS.

Other than my Trax unit with an eyelet end mount like I have now on my BMW G450X. Instead of the longer Trax unit end with the forked clevis end on yours. Our Trax shocks are virtually identical.

No help from "WP America" or "Race Tech" so far just trying to get a WP 5018 Trax shock Husky style linkage factory clevis price and part number. I guess I have to text them the pictures. So someone can figure it out. It seems nobody I've spoken to has seen a 5018 Trax shock with the eyelet end. Only with a Clevis type forked end.

v

 

[robertaccio]

mine came off 2 450 KTM SX/XC and bolted right onto my te300 in the parts breakdown it looks like everything comes apart . BTW I bought 2 and one of his had the trax "unit" not in use, for WORCS the other was fully functional for endurocross we brought both into WP Murrieta and they rebuilt serviced resprung both and made both fully trax. note even with the rubber cover water can still get in and corrode the trax springs keep an eye on that. OK back to forks we can make a trax thread!!

 

[robertaccio]

iI have it in my files.....I thought I saw the exploded view somewhere. there are your P/Ns you can see the 2 choices for bottom fittings you are looking for the "forked" one I assume for your linkage bike.

 

[robertaccio]

It works just download the pdf. there is a new thread in general for this WP5018 TRAX stuff.

 

[Big Timmy]

Thanks Robert,
Even crud building up under the bump stop is bad news.

My Suspension guy can get the part, I'm sure but he hasn't got back to me either. I just wanted to price it and have it in hand, possibly do it for him and not waste his time. Or at least know if I can get it at a competitive cost, know how much he is marking it up. My curiosity gets to me sometimes. Want to know myself and how much I need to start stashing away.

Thanks for starting a Trax thread. Should be plenty of posts and valuable info on there. LOL. Might as well just start doing PMs to one another.

 

[reveille]

I'd like to get ahold of Johnny walkers Trax shock for my 300 xc w...

 

[LandofMotards]

Thanks for starting a Trax thread. Should be plenty of posts and valuable info on there. LOL. Might as well just start doing PMs to one another.

Please don't, we want to read about the factory racer parts.