The Husky F/I FIX

[OlderHuskyRider]

FYI the weather is getting hot and i noticed that when it hit the 90's
last week my A/F gauge said I was starting to run a little on the lean side,
I could notice a lean surge in 4 and 5 gear around cruse speeds
so I bumped up the JD unit half a step in G,Y,R and everything came back into play,
This tells me for sure something I have been looking at for a couple of years,
neather the stock or the JD unit is a set and forget, it requires adjustment's with the change
in temperature to keep the tune up optimized, The whole Husqvarna EFI system behaves just like
a carb in respect to changes in the atmosphere,

I don't know why things became so contradictory and speculative...sudenly There are old ancient CafeHusky threads that went into it... basically for me I accepted the info and moved on...

I think as more and more information becomes available, like Tech3's info above, and my own experience comes to light, more doubt is cast on the "accepted knowledge base" that people just accepted as fact. Some of what has been accepted as fact is not fact. If Tech3 is saying that his EFI is NOT compensating for temperature, and he has to manually adjust it, then I think the air temperature sensor capability on these bikes is suspect, doesn't exist or his is faulty and no way to cure it but replace the throttle body at huge cost.

My own experience says that 800 feet elevation, or 8000 elevation, my bike uses the exact same amount of gas in both places, and at 8000 feet, I'm down on power and that's because I'm running rich.

I just think it's time to accept that realization that some of what has been accepted as fact is not fact.

 

[HUSKYnXJnWI]

I think Tec3 did not mean to be taken 100% literal as you have taken him when he suggests that our efi behave just as a carb in refferance atmosphere. That's a stretch and a very absolute statement. Our efi's do adapt, just not as 'perfect' as some assume that think efi's are adjusting to perfection absolutely meeting the expectation of an AAAAAAA Racer or a comuter in any condition you throw at it. NOPE its not "perfect"... we aren't there yet.

 

[glangston]

2010 parts from Hall's for TE models
8000 A6736 Temperature Sensor
8000 A5640 Throttle Position Sensor

Haven't found the Air Pressure Sensor but I'm betting if you called Hall's they could get you the number. That's all the searching I'm going to do.

M.A.Q.S is not a unit. It is the sum of the 3 sensors. It does not show on the schematic except as to the fact that the sensors information is integrated (in the ECU).

Altitude of 8000 takes about 20% or so of the power but it does this on carb bikes too. There is no way around unless you oxygenate fuel, or turbo or some other way to get more air/oxygen into the mix.

 

[glangston]

I think the Air Pressure sensor is part of the ECU so you may not find a separate listing.

What I found in general was if it was bad you need a whole new ECU.

 

[Tech 3]

Wow what a can of worms
When i said that the EFI behaves just like the carb That is exactly what i meant
the air fuel ratio changes with the weather just like with a carb when it gets cold or hot
with a carb you have to adjust the air fuel mixture screw to a richer setting,U may have to change the pilot and main if it gets cold enough,at best if you have it dialed in spot on you might get away
with just raising or lowering the needle.what I have experienced with the EFI is the sane thing when it gets colder or hotter to keep my motor running like i want I have to adjust the JD unit instead of changing jets I'am pushing a button.I like the EFI much better than a carb as far as keeping it in tune
I was not going to accept that my carbed bikes ran better than my EFI bike thats when i hooked up the diagnostic gear up and started monitoring what was going on. after i could see the numbers it was easy to know what to do,I tried for a year to get the CO thing to work out but it was unsatisfactory not enough adjustment to make it happen then when I hooked up the JD tuner I could dial it in
I have looked through the old threads and I did not see any one monitoring their A/F
ratios with a Gage on a daily bases, With out the feed back of a wide band o2 sensor
it is impossible for the ECU to adjust the A/F ratio to a target point, thats why power commander
has a auto tune it needs the feed back from the o2 sensor to tell you what values to accept
then you accept those values then take the o2 sensor out if you leave the auto tune in the values change with the weather I have seen it done on the bikes that I work on with the PC with auto tune
These huskys blast even with a soft tune but trust me there is soo much there to be had with a good tune I don't mean to rain on antibody's parade but any serious racer or tuner tunes with a A/F gage
Thats why I started this tread to share the Data Sorry it took so long to get back but I have been tuning bikes all day it is a tough job but some one has to do it.

 

[OlderHuskyRider]

I think Tec3 did not mean to be taken 100% literal as you have taken him when he suggests that our efi behave just as a carb in refferance atmosphere. That's a stretch and a very absolute statement. Our efi's do adapt, just not as 'perfect' as some assume that think efi's are adjusting to perfection absolutely meeting the expectation of an AAAAAAA Racer or a comuter in any condition you throw at it. NOPE its not "perfect"... we aren't there yet.

I think he posted and said yes, he meant to be taken literally, and I agree with him. I personally think that a CV carb does a better job of adjusting to temps and altitude within a small range than does the Mik EFI. And I agree with you, that the Mik EFI does NOT do a perfect job of adjusting for temps and altitude, I think we differ in that I think the Mik EFI is FAR from perfect, it's closer to a CVcarb than it is to perfection.

2010 parts from Hall's for TE models
8000 A6736 Temperature Sensor
8000 A5640 Throttle Position Sensor
Haven't found the Air Pressure Sensor but I'm betting if you called Hall's they could get you the number. That's all the searching I'm going to do.
M.A.Q.S is not a unit. It is the sum of the 3 sensors. It does not show on the schematic except as to the fact that the sensors information is integrated (in the ECU).
Altitude of 8000 takes about 20% or so of the power but it does this on carb bikes too. There is no way around unless you oxygenate fuel, or turbo or some other way to get more air/oxygen into the mix.

TPS does nothing to affect fuel mixture/AFI for air temp or altitude.
The coolant Temp Sensor only richens the mixture when coolant is cold and then leans it out when warmed up, does nothing for air temps or altitude. I learned this by building my rad covers (similar to the radiator covers you see on big rigs in the winter) to get my horrible gas mileage up closer to 38-39 MPG.
And I agree that there is no "MAQS" as a unit, it's a marketing term.

I understand that 8000 altitude takes power away, but I was told that the Mik EFI would compensate for altitude and essentially re-jet the bike on the fly, and I would be looking at better gas mileage. This is not true. If I want the bike to run at a correct 14:1 AFR in the mountains, I'm gonna have to buy a JD tuner and fart around with it. The Mik EFI adjusts incredibly little on a trip to Colorado, IF ANY AT ALL.

I think the Air Pressure sensor is part of the ECU so you may not find a separate listing.
What I found in general was if it was bad you need a whole new ECU.

I don't believe there is an Air Pressure Sensor in the Mik EFI architecture. if there is one, it does a far from perfect job, bordering on no job at all. Here's the marketing description of the MAQS again:
"and the MAQS (Modularized Air Quantity Sensor) consists of air temperature, mapping and TPS (Throttle Position Sensor) sensors."
There is no mention of any sensor that measures the density/pressure of the air.

 

[Tech 3]

This is what I have found It takes about a 20 degree change to really see the effect
The other thing if the EFI adjust it self where does it get its most important peace of info
the air fuel ratio from you wont get that from a Air pressure sensor you wont get it from a
air temp sensor none of those measure exhaust gasses air fuel ratio so in that case where does it
get a reference point so to know where to Begin it cant with out a wide band o2 sensor
as far as altitude you can be at sea level and on a hot hot day and your motor will think it is at 8000 feet ASL
google up density altitude and check out the charts
Lets say for example we have the bike dialed in at 13.2 AFR at 60 degrees and it goes to 90 degrees the next day then the air fuel ratio now reads in the 14 range under sustain loads why did the EFI not adjust for the temp change it should of kept the AFR ratio the same 13.2 it cant the system is not sophisticated enough to do that, and Dude as far as for something not working wright, I have 3 510 motors in the shop and 5 throttle bodies and 4 ECU's have tried them all they all do the same thing it is like older husky rider said it is a electric carb and there is nothing wrong with that until the pump fails SOL

 

[OlderHuskyRider]

I am going to ride in the mountains will I need to lean out the tune?
Normally no. All of the factory-specified and required settings for temperature, altitude, and barometric pressure adjustments are still made by the ECU.

I know that this is the answer that is given out here and other places, but I just do not agree with it any longer, not now that I have heard from Tech3 and his research. AND his knowledge correlates and agrees with my field observations as well. You guys can continue to tell people that the Mik EFI compensates for altitude but I won't.

I don't know why things became so contradictory and speculative...sudenly
There are old ancient CafeHusky threads that went into it... basically for me I accepted the info and moved on... The MAQS is listed on your Schematic, and it is located on your Throttle Body- that big plug with all the wires connected to your throttle body is the MAQS connector and includes the wires for the tps.

The reason that I finally came out and am ready to stand by my field observations is that there is someone now with hard cold data with real AFR tools that agrees with my observations.

The other thing if the EFI adjust it self where does it get its most important peace of info
the air fuel ratio from you wont get that from a Air pressure sensor you wont get it from a
air temp sensor none of those measure exhaust gasses air fuel ratio so in that case where does it
get a reference point so to know where to Begin it cant with out a wide band o2 sensor
as far as altitude you can be at sea level and on a hot hot day and your motor will think it is at 8000 feet ASL
google up density altitude and check out the charts
Lets say for example we have the bike dialed in at 13.2 AFR at 60 degrees and it goes to 90 degrees the next day then the air fuel ratio now reads in the 14 range under sustain loads why did the EFI not adjust for the temp change it should of kept the AFR ratio the same 13.2 it cant the system is not sophisticated enough to do that, and Dude as far as for something not working wright, I have 3 510 motors in the shop and 5 throttle bodies and 4 ECU's have tried them all they all do the same thing it is like older husky rider said it is a electric carb and there is nothing wrong with that until the pump fails SOL

I love my Husky, it rips, do I wish I had my 2010 Husky with a CV carb? Yeah, I think I do, now that I know all that I know about this Mik EFI.

 

[HUSKYnXJnWI]

Ibeat displays numbers for: manifold air temp, Manifold Pressure, and Air Pressure. The Ibeat manual states it reads Barametric pressure, and atmospheric pressure as well. I am guessing based on the manual and being somewhat familiar with the bike that this occurrs in the Throttle Body- through what has been termed the MAQS sensor.

I believe it adjust for it elevation and temp.

In my experience it has done so and meets my expectations.

I don't mean to tell anyone else if it meets their expectations- that's up to each individual. If it doesn't. I am sorry.

Maybe it is possible your's does not work right. I have been waiting to hear of a failure of this. I have never heard of it failing yet, but as you know anything can fail. I'd guess that a dealer may have heard of that or not. I don't know how one would tell other than if it comes up as a failure or if the readings are just way off.

 

[Tech 3]

I know that this is the answer that is given out here and other places, but I just do not agree with it any longer, not now that I have heard from Tech3 and his research. AND his knowledge correlates and agrees with my field observations as well. You guys can continue to tell people that the Mik EFI compensates for altitude but I won't.




The reason that I finally came out and am ready to stand by my field observations is that there is someone now with hard cold data with real AFR tools that agrees with my observations.




I love my Husky, it rips, do I wish I had my 2010 Husky with a CV carb? Yeah, I think I do, now that I know all that I know about this Mik EFI.

Ithink we all love the husky thats why we do 500 mile oil changes
OHR keep this in mind when you get the hang of the EFI it runs just as good as the carb motors

 

[glangston]

Page 81 of my 2008 Manual shows

32. Air Temperature Sensor (40)
34. Pressure Sensor (40)
24. Sensor position throttle control (40)
40. M.A.Q.S. (34+24+32)

Whether it works better than a carb or whether it performs as marketers claim is a valid question and since I don't have and have never had a carbed bike I'm unable to say.

I just thought there was some doubt on the existence of sensors.

 

[Tech 3]

Ibeat displays numbers for: manifold air temp, Manifold Pressure, and Air Pressure. The Ibeat manual states it reads Barametric pressure, and atmospheric pressure as well. I am guessing based on the manual and being somewhat familiar with the bike that this occurrs in the Throttle Body- through what has been termed the MAQS sensor.

I believe it adjust for it elevation and temp.

In my experience it has done so and meets my expectations.

I don't mean to tell anyone else if it meets their expectations- that's up to each individual. If it doesn't. I am sorry.

Maybe it is possible your's does not work right. I have been waiting to hear of a failure of this. I have never heard of it failing yet, but as you know anything can fail. I'd guess that a dealer may have heard of that or not. I don't know how one would tell other than if it comes up as a failure or if the readings are just way off.

I would be willing to guess that you also run a A/f gage to validate those changes that are made due to temperature

 

[HUSKYnXJnWI]

No, I only have Ibeat. no air fuel meters, dynos, nothing- butt dyno at best (I know not worth much to a professional)- I don't work in the industry. I am just another rider. . I have only tried to understand this EFI system and share what I have learned and have read everything I could about it. I try to help others and share info. The system seems like an algorithm to me- interconnected and has many dependents. Thinking of it from only AFR is somewhat easier in a way, its one factor that judges all. Yes, the sum of all.

You can prove that at some elevation and at some temp that you find a need for adjustment based on your AFM. I completely believe that, and agree. Doesn't it appear that I do? I Do
Can it be said from that fact, that the system does not account for elevation and temps? You may say it doesn't do it well- or great, or whatever but not at all?. I am just saying that it does take it in to account and don't believe its simply a marketing ploy. If it doesn't at All, I am really really amazed in how my bike has performed and or why and can't explain it either if that is the case.

Tec3 you are used to judging performance from AFM and that means alot to you with your experience and expertise in your field, I don't doubt, you'd have my bike running better than it does if you tuned it, and could and would want to tune it again with temp alt changes and would make improvements in AFR. Some of the finite details of tuning are lost on some people (I might not even notice) I say that in a humble manner-as I am no PRO anything.
I am not saying that the system cannot be improved upon and added to which you are doing. I am not saying you are wasting your time or money. I am not saying alot, actually, certainly not to the point we are debating or arguing, at least that's not my intention. I am just trying to understand what you have stated and have you understand what I am trying to state which is more of me repeating what has been said in the past whether it come from here or in a manual, yes what was considered established. think that is easy to convince or accept? nope, and that doesn't make me an ahole.

I agree with you OHR, if I had to run an AFM and a Piggyback EFI unit I would be pretty disappointed in the off road sector (SM and MX I'd imagine I'd definitely want it where ounce of HP counts). Here's the thing- I am not riding consistently in elevation changes and huge temp changes but have. That I accept is limited experience with extreems compared to you. My bike just did much better than carbed bikes and did not show any symptoms. I have been happy- I didn't care to pay attention to anything beyond enjoying myself- if I can do that I am Happy!. I personally don't need to make any changes for what I am doing.

Good night guys Sorry if I am being stubborn or seemingly ignorant, strangely I don't think we are all actually in disagreement... semantics and maybe I am giving my bike kudos it doesn't deserve- but I never feel anyones carbed bike has an advantage- certainly I don't regret getting my bike and would rather be tuning efi than a carb. That's good enough for me

 

[glangston]

My dealer George (Uptite) has an onboard Innovate system he has used on my 2008 to test AF ratios. He's also used JD type adjusters in the past on FI. I think he likes carbs overall for some obvious reasons like reliability but he is not against progress and FI is standard in autos so it's not going away.

They made these bikes work for Enduro riders in Europe and won championships. They are not FAIL in the larger sense.

 

[Tech 3]

This thread is not about which is better the crab or the EFI it is intended
to make F/I bike owners aware of what can be done with the F/I
You can make this motor do about any thing you want by adjusting the EFI in
certain areas, like Run cooler in low air flow conditions like slow single track,
put down more torque in certain RPM ranges or my fav,making the fuel lite not come on
till 65 miles instead of 54 miles I realize that the mass want,s a set it and forget it,
this thread is not about that at all, if you want that ask some one where they have there
CO1,CO2,CO3 set at or there JD unit set at and go have fun thats all great but,
this thread is about making changes and logging what results are achieved by these changes
Good or bad thats why they call it test and tune thats how you find out what things can and can't do
This is what I do, I test things, sometimes till they break then I take them apart and find out why
so the next time they wont, log the info and pass it on to other Motor Heads thats what this thread
is about Take from it what you can use and move on, any one else's test results is greatly appreciated
Knowledge is Horsepower ( Long live the red headed step child with the mikuni EFI)

 

[dobr24]

Tech 3 Thanks for the TPS reset and Idle adjustment on Saturday. Bike is running better. I did have to go home and reset the zero TPS and 100% TPS in the Power Commander. My values were off by one percent after the adjustments. Thanks for your knowledge and help.
Chris

 

[Tech 3]

Tech 3 Thanks for the TPS reset and Idle adjustment on Saturday. Bike is running better. I did have to go home and reset the zero TPS and 100% TPS in the Power Commander. My values were off by one percent after the adjustments. Thanks for your knowledge and help.
Chris

Chris Thanks I had a good time working on the bikes and riding with you guys
If I can ever help again let me know I make go to the track with shags this week
may be see ya there.