125-200cc Spring Rates? '06 WR125

[Motosportz]

thanks for posting up Mike.

I hate progressive springs for motocross, but for the type of technical, tight, rocky singltrack I ride now they worked awesome.

As I said these are not typical progressive springs, they are a new design and engineered by a guy who himself has been back and forth with progressive springs. I think the real key is he hit on the amount of progression over an amount of travel that just flat works. Richard is WAY into this stuff and goes far beyond your typical revalver.

 

[woodsrider]

Thats an awesome offer and I would take him up on it Ed. Very cool of you Kyle and what this site is all about.

Agreed.

My short time posting on the board here has further confirmed that my decision to get the WR was a good choice. This is a great place.

 

[Hoov165x]

thanks for posting up Mike.



As I said these are not typical progressive springs, they are a new design and engineered by a guy who himself has been back and forth with progressive springs. I think the real key is he hit on the amount of progression over an amount of travel that just flat works. Richard is WAY into this stuff and goes far beyond your typical revalver.

I noticed that last night when I opened the package. They are wound different than others I have seen.

 

[Xcuvator]

Not to disagree with Kelly, but I have run progressive springs on other bikes (not my WR) and was quite dissatisfied with them. I felt like they rode lower in the stroke because the initial rate was too soft, and then firmed up too much and became harsh

That was my feeling after trying some of Richards (38-43) progressive springs in the CC 50mm Zokes with Riders Edge valves and stacks on my 09 165. After playing with the preload, I liked 40 straight rate springs better.
Different strokes for.....

I don't think the stock valves can be drilled out to flow as much oil as the Riders Edge valves.
I have pictures somewhere of a modded Marzocchi valve next to a Riders Edge valve. I'll see if I can find one.

 

[Kyle Tarry]

I don't think the stock valves can be drilled out to flow as much oil as the Riders Edge valves.
I have pictures somewhere of a modded Marzocchi valve next to a Riders Edge valve. I'll see if I can find one.

They definitely can't. The real question is, do they need to be?

They can be drilled out to be similarly sized as the newer KYB stuff (my drilled 610 ports are a bit bigger than the stock ports in my WR300's KYB forks). I've looked at this in the restackor program and it says that the drilled ports aren't a flow limitation at commonly encountered fork speeds.

There are other behavioral changes that come with different port geometries, due to differences in the way the shims are loaded. Some of these might explain why the same shim stack "feels" different on different valves.

Ports that are too small can definitely be bad, but beyond some point going bigger is diminishing returns. What is hard to figure out is where that point is...

 

[Motosportz]

That was my feeling after trying some of Richards (38-43) progressive springs in the CC 50mm Zokes with Riders Edge valves and stacks on my 09 165.

that seems way light. Mine are 44-50 and still trail plush. Also Richard warns against using these springs with other valves and shim stacks, he has his own formula. Sounds like you might have had the wrong combo of stuff. Or maybe you just don't like them which is cool too. You should ride my bike some day.

 

[Xcuvator]

that seems way light. Mine are 44-50 and still trail plush. Also Richard warns against using these springs with other valves and shim stacks, he has his own formula. Sounds like you might have had the wrong combo of stuff. Or maybe you just don't like them which is cool too. You should ride my bike some day.

I only weighed barely 170 at that time and they were what Richard thought I needed. I told Richard about the valves and what I had for stacks.
So I don't know, except I wanted them to work.
Yeah maybe 40-45s would have been the ticket, but at the time he was having trouble getting springs and he was in the process of moving back to OK. I had waited over 6 weeks for the 38-43s and I just wanted to ride the bike!

I would like to ride yours sometime and you ride mine. Maybe at CH

 

[Xcuvator]

They definitely can't. The real question is, do they need to be?

They can be drilled out to be similarly sized as the newer KYB stuff (my drilled 610 ports are a bit bigger than the stock ports in my WR300's KYB forks). I've looked at this in the restackor program and it says that the drilled ports aren't a flow limitation at commonly encountered fork speeds.

There are other behavioral changes that come with different port geometries, due to differences in the way the shims are loaded. Some of these might explain why the same shim stack "feels" different on different valves.

Ports that are too small can definitely be bad, but beyond some point going bigger is diminishing returns. What is hard to figure out is where that point is...

Your points all make sense to me and I have heard that point of view before.
I didn't know how much flow was enough and took the word of the guy that designed the valves (Ian McKill) and I'm happy with his reccomendations. And yeah he did have a dog in the fight.
And I'm not saying there is anything wrong with your approach.

BTW, I have seen two different styles of stock base valves. Some have the holes go straight through and some that turn 90 degrees like those you describe.

 

[Motosportz]

What did you not like about them?

I'll probably bring the 511 to CH.

 

[Motosportz]

BTW, I have seen two different styles of stock base valves. Some have the holes go straight through and some that turn 90 degrees like those you describe.

Mine in my 04 CR125 go straight through.

 

[Xcuvator]

What did you not like about them?

I'll probably bring the 511 to CH.

The same thing as Kyle Tary. By the time I got the preload set so they were up in the stroke I thought they were stiff after compressing the cushy part of the spring.
Here is a RE valve:

 

[Kyle Tarry]

I didn't know how much flow was enough and took the word of the guy that designed the valves (Ian McKill) and I'm happy with his reccomendations. And yeah he did have a dog in the fight.
And I'm not saying there is anything wrong with your approach.

No worries man, I'm enjoying the discussion!

I trust Ian's judgement (never met the guy, but from what I have seen posted here he seems to know what he is doing), and I am not saying that his valves are not an improvement. I just hold the theory that modified stock valves can get you a good bit closer to that performance point for way less cost. I'd like to run the two (and/or gold valves) back to back and see where the aftermarket valves are better and where they're not.

I've considered machining up my own set of base valves, just to mess around and see what happens, but I think that the "low hanging fruit" for now is in shim stacks and port drilling...

 

[Motosportz]

The same thing as Kyle Tary. By the time I got the preload set so they were up in the stroke I thought they were stiff after compressing the cushy part of the spring.
Here is a RE valve:

interesting. Maybe the rate was to soft and allowing it to settle to much Mine are very plush all the way through the stroke. Love them on roots and rocks etc. Good info, thanks.

 

[Kyle Tarry]

I think I drill them to about 4mm in diameter (0.15 inches), but you'll want to measure the inside of the shim seat to be sure.

Just an FYI:

There are multiple styles of Shiver 45 base valve pistons. The ones shown in my photo on the previous page are from my '06 610. Some bikes come with the "straight through" type (both Kelly's and Ed's 125s, for example), and they can't all be drilled out to the same size.

I've been able to go to about 3.5mm on the straight through style, which is still at least 50% more area than stock.

Just be aware and be careful if you're going to try this, you don't want to smoke a piston.