Second start attempt on new 88 510, and I just broke the kicker mechanism lol

[1Tuff500XC]

OK, first let me say, I will not be trying to start this thing again, personally, without boots on, and a fresh spark plug.

Just made a second start attempt, as I had some time again. Dug the bike out of storage. Unfortunately its a tiny chore to pull it out, to where I can mess with it. That will change shortly.

So, pull it out, pull the float bowl to confirm fuel. She's got fuel there, coming out the needle and seat as normal. Noted one circlip per float post as missing, but also noted the floats still function with only one per side. Also noted the float drop limiting tang was allowing to much drop, and felt like it could allow the needle to be stuck down real low and wide opened. I corrected that before I buttoned her back up.

Then, used crates. Still didn't have boots, as the boots I got were to small. Had perhaps 5 or 6 good kicks, when I just barely thought I heard a little pop at the bottom stroke of one kick. Then, the kicker coming back up was super quiet, with no kicker pawl noise. Now kicker doesn't engage engine at all. Like the kicker pawl just vanished on me right there. Still feel the return spring, lifting the kicker arm back up. But no engagement internally.

I can see this thing was just appart, so I'm kinda believing even more that the engine is suppose to have been completely gone through, with atleast a fresh top end. I can see the fresh center case gasket.

So anywho, still haven't heard this thing fire once in person, and it looks like I get to pull the clutch cover, to see what's up with the kicker mechanism.

Good thing I went through the ultimate test of patience in the past two years in dealing with some serious auto accident injuries, as previously, this might have ticked me off! LOL............just gotta roll with the punches.

This time around, I felt like I wasn't quite getting enough engine speed with the kicks. So I won't even bother till I have boots, next time. And a fresh plug.

Tried the push it and let clutch out in 2nd gear as one suggested in the other thread, and this things just got way to much compression for that. Even on rough great traction blacktop, she just mostly drags the rear wheel. Maybe with some weight on it from another person, and that might have worked.

I'll get it figured out, just not right now. Might be a few weeks till I can mess with it again.

On a positive note, almost have enough money saved up to buy an old Dodge truck like I want lol. This year will be a great year, despite this tiny little set back on the 510. Just going through a learning process, as far as I'm concerned, as the learning never ends.


Me 0, bike 2. I'll win next time!

 

[oldhuskychuck]

ill be in AZ later this month for a AHRMA Nat, would be happy to show you how to start it.
drop me a PM,.we can set up a time during the weekend of Jan 23rd,

 

[1Tuff500XC]

Hey Chuck, thanks for the offer, really appreciate it. I'll see if I can get the bike fixed in time. I'm kicking at the right point in stroke. At this point, I think it's just the lack of boots, and my increased need for them when kick starting a bike (due to broken ankle and hip not long ago). Think the lack of boots, is just keeping me from getting the engine speed needed. Or this time it seemed that way, for the few kicks I had, before I broke the darn thing lol. I'm only 5'8", but you'd think 210 lbs of nearly dead weight should be enough momentum coming down.

Not counting if I need a new pawl, or the gear that grabs on/rides in, any other parts I should need, beyond a simple gasket for the clutch cover???? Anything with the water pump?

I know from looking at the gear and pawl on parts I was accumulating for my 500XC, that these specific parts are highly prone to getting hurt. The pawl appears very hardened, but can break, and the gears are softer and where the pawl fits/grabs mushes and gets misshaped by the strain of starting the bigger bore engines. Even though this bikes engine was gone through to some degree, there's a high likelyhood those parts were simply reused, when I'm guessing they shouldn't have been. I wasn't accidently coming down against TDC on compression stroke when it broke, but had previously a few times. Myself, and the PO's starting difficulties surely put some strain on that little pawl, etc.

Will see if I can't look for a gasket here in a few, and possibly that pawl and gear too, because if I just broke it, or it was malformed enough to come apart, I can't very well put the same parts back in I'm guessing.

 

[LEADVILLEHUSKY]

well if he cant kick it, i sure can!!! i will be with him in arizona, what s the jetting in your 500 xc? im coming from 10,000 feet to ride so a good base would help

 

[1Tuff500XC]

Thanks guys. Gotta fix the 510 now. Broke something in the kicker mechanism. Doesn't engage the engine now.

Have previously had no issue starting a YZF400 and XR650R, so a bit surprised I've run into the issues with this bike, but we'll get passed it. Previous owner is saying it has a new plug, but as dead as it's acted with me, I'm tossing in a new one. And getting boots, so I can give it everything I've got next time.

Could be a few weeks, possibly, before I get a chance to pop the clutch cover off, and fix the kick start mechanism.

 

[ruwfo]

Use the decompression lever

"Tried the push it and let clutch out in 2nd gear as one suggested in the other thread, and this things just got way to much compression for that. Even on rough great traction blacktop, she just mostly drags the rear wheel. Maybe with some weight on it from another person, and that might have worked"

You have to use the decompression lever also, try it in 3rd gear, pull in
clutch & decomp lever. Start pushing then let the clutch out, then the
the decomp, or all she well do is skid the back tire.

Husky John

 

[Motosportz]

Man that sucks but i like your positive attitude. Good luck

 

[Up-tite]

When your learning to K-start any bike. Never ever without BOOTS.
First because We (you,me,others) need more info.
510 4 stroke, Does it have a cable running from the kick lever up to top of motor. This is an auto decomp. Does it have decomp lever (usually on clutch lever, or next to it)?
Assuming it is somewhat adjusted, you should be able to pull it in and push the K-start thru with your hand, or very easily with your foot. Do this several times learn how to best position your foot on the k-lever as not to crash your foot or toes into the foot peg. Try at top of stroke pointing toes down as you slowly kick will see that foot will miss the foot peg and will allow a full stroke. This is important because if done properly it will not kick back. K-start will disengage at end of stroke and it gives a full stroke. Practice this.

Put foot on k-lever push down gentely, when it gets hard STOP, Now pull decomp lever and push down on K-lever 1"-2" no more,release decomp lever, now bring K-lever all way back to top make sure it's ingaged and kick it.

Some will chime in here and say bring it to TDC then decomp just a little past DTC then kick it. This is WRONG it's not even close to TDC yet. What is really happening is the piston is comming up on comp stroke and the valves are closed now its building comp, what you are doing is releasing the comp built up and with the decomp and 1"-2" more on k-lever is moving the piston up in the stroke, so you can say your really only kicking over a 250 at this point.
When kicking never open the throttle (will kick back).
Look at left hand side of carb see the big screw (idle speed) in front of it is (mixture screw) have a screw driver handy that fits it. When you get it running keep it running what ever it takes until it gets warm, as long as it is idling if not screw in speed screw so it does what you are looking for is a very low idle (almost stall) with screw driver slowly screw in the mixture screw, if it starts to rev up bring down the idle speed to a low idle, continue with mixture screw until it wants to stumble or die. Now go out on the mixture screw until it does it again( stumbles) now put the mixture screw between these points. Set your idle speed just so it's a low but comfortable idle. Touch k-button with no throttle it will start with no effort using the procedure, push down on k-start (hard),decomp,1-2" more, k-start back to top,kick it.
To bump start, find a long hill (street) start rolling clutch in,decomp in,2 nd gear,let clutch out(decomp in still) motor will turn over now let out the decomp should fire grab clutch keep it running,turn around and go back up the hill, get it hot then adjust carb.
Adjust the decomp so when running should be able to pull decomp arm with your fingers( top rh side of motor back 1-2 mm before you feel it touch the valve will kinda rattle on your fingers back and forth.
Later George

 

[1Tuff500XC]

You have to use the decompression lever also, try it in 3rd gear, pull in
clutch & decomp lever. Start pushing then let the clutch out, then the
the decomp, or all she well do is skid the back tire.

Husky John

OK John, yeah, did the clutch and decomp lever, but in 2nd. Will try it with the more precise technique your mentioning, and in 3rd gear.

Still gonna fix the kicker first, just so I know that little pawl and spring aren't floatin around loose on that side. Will see if I can't get the cover pulled, possibly, in the next few days. Thanks.......

 

[1Tuff500XC]

When your learning to K-start any bike. Never ever without BOOTS.

Later George

Thanks George, really appreciate the very specific detailed info/instructions. Will follow to a T, next chance I get, and see if that doesn't do the trick.

 

[brettles2k]

Ive just bought a 88 510, was so pissed off with it not starting as the kicker as at an awkward angle. Bit of practice and it kicking over on 3rd try. Do you what these bikes are like on the road? Was wanting to do a bit of trail riding from my front door.
Thanks Brett

 

[fran...k.]

George, which leg and are you putting the ball of the foot or the arch of the foot on the pedal?

 

[1Tuff500XC]

Personally, at first, even though most say stand off the bike to the left, and use right foot, I was slamming my toes into the foot peg doing it that way. Until I would really focus on turning my toes outward. Due to my height, or lack thereof, I still felt much more consistent at getting a nice fast strong full stroke by standing over the bike like normal. Straddling the bike, and just kicking with my left leg/foot, right foot on crate or foot peg.

 

[1Tuff500XC]

Does it have decomp lever (usually on clutch lever, or next to it)?

Yes

Assuming it is somewhat adjusted, you should be able to pull it in and push the K-start thru with your hand, or very easily with your foot.

Before the kicker mechanism broke, I had done that. Did a bunch of it, trying to get a feel for where she was at in the stroke, on the first start attempt session.

 

[oldhuskychuck]

iv not seen many 86 to 90 510,s with a decomp cable still installed, most of them bet the dust in the first year ownership,
starting a 510 really insnt that tough, decomp or not..
sounds like the prawl spring fell out, or the keeper for the prawl chipped out, dont start the bike until you pull the cover and take a looky.
i wouldnt drian the oil out the plug, let the oil drian out when you remove the side cover, id bet the prawl is laying right on top.
fix it before it really breaks..
eat some vitamins, do a Tarzan call, and man up, kick it...!!
a mans bike starts on the left, and girls bike starts on the right...lol

 

[Up-tite]

George, which leg and are you putting the ball of the foot or the arch of the foot on the pedal?

Which ever feels best, reason for pointing toes downward and the drill of stroking it with decomp to get the feel and clearing the foot peg.
I stand off to the side on a crate or bumper of box van 12" or more in height. It's also important to have a solid base on what ever your using.
I also use a kind of lift body up using body weight to get things moving then use the leg to give it kinda of a snap at end of stroke. Just legging it just wares you out to quick.
Back in the day (83-84) had a kid working for me he weighed 98 pounds so after teaching him how to do it he bacame my instructer for all my 200-275 pound guys would come in because they couldn't get there bikes started.

Now these big guys would collapse the suspension when kicking it over, these guys were very strong but with Mikes light ass and using the body weight then legging it at the bottom of the stroke bikes would start effortless easily.
Have seen many many stitches gotten because of kicking in tennis shoes,sandals,leather soled shoes and toe nails ripped off from hitting foot peg with not having boots on. And DO NOT ever let foot slip off towards the last 1/4 botton of stroke this is the point where it wants to kick back but will if not stroked completely thru. It's at this point the plug fires and the fuel starts to light off while the piston is still comming up at this point with your kick your pushing the piston to the top and over now the explosion in the cyl takes over and drives the piston down in the right direction. The backfire is when the piston is driven back down before it goes over the top. So full kick and it won't happen.
Later George

 

[1Tuff500XC]

iv not seen many 86 to 90 510,s with a decomp cable still installed, most of them bet the dust in the first year ownership,

Well, the bike's still got that going for it then. Still there, or replaced.

starting a 510 really insnt that tough, decomp or not..
sounds like the prawl spring fell out, or the keeper for the prawl chipped out, dont start the bike until you pull the cover and take a looky.
i wouldnt drian the oil out the plug, let the oil drian out when you remove the side cover, id bet the prawl is laying right on top.
fix it before it really breaks..
eat some vitamins, do a Tarzan call, and man up, kick it...!!
a mans bike starts on the left, and girls bike starts on the right...lol

LOL, gotcha. Will do. Definetly not trying to start it till fixed correctly. Was wondering about draining the oil too.

Incase the gasket isn't re-useable, do these just take a standard 2 stroke style clutch cover gasket???? Or unique to the 510's?

Any domestic source for the pawl/prawl and springs, new?

 

[1Tuff500XC]

Which ever feels best, reason for pointing toes downward and the drill of stroking it with decomp to get the feel and clearing the foot peg.
I stand off to the side on a crate or bumper of box van 12" or more in height. It's also important to have a solid base on what ever your using.
I also use a kind of lift body up using body weight to get things moving then use the leg to give it kinda of a snap at end of stroke. Just legging it just wares you out to quick.
Back in the day (83-84) had a kid working for me he weighed 98 pounds so after teaching him how to do it he bacame my instructer for all my 200-275 pound guys would come in because they couldn't get there bikes started.

Now these big guys would collapse the suspension when kicking it over, these guys were very strong but with Mikes light ass and using the body weight then legging it at the bottom of the stroke bikes would start effortless easily.
Have seen many many stitches gotten because of kicking in tennis shoes,sandals,leather soled shoes and toe nails ripped off from hitting foot peg with not having boots on. And DO NOT ever let foot slip off towards the last 1/4 botton of stroke this is the point where it wants to kick back but will if not stroked completely thru. It's at this point the plug fires and the fuel starts to light off while the piston is still comming up at this point with your kick your pushing the piston to the top and over now the explosion in the cyl takes over and drives the piston down in the right direction. The backfire is when the piston is driven back down before it goes over the top. So full kick and it won't happen.
Later George

OK, yeah, I realize that technique. I used to use that technique even a bit at times kicking 250 2 strokes over, when needed. But I am having to focus on it now, where as I never did before. Been a long time, and health/injuries/condition etc., just making it a bigger challenge than it should be I'm thinking. Several factors combining I think.

I'll get the cover pulled, and go from there.

Trying to line up some boots as well, and have fresh plugs on the way also.

 

[fran...k.]

Was wondering about draining the oil too.

Incase the gasket isn't re-useable, do these just take a standard 2 stroke style clutch cover gasket???? Or unique to the 510's?

Any domestic source for the pawl/prawl and springs, new?

You probably will want to drain the oil so you can work on it in the vertical position. The locating pins on that cover can make it kind of hard to get off. Those with the water pump have the advantage you can put a bolt in one of the waterpump holes to pull on.

As to the gasket, you will have to learn how to look up parts numbers and see for yourself to be sure. In this instance I am pretty sure it will be the same as a two stoke one of similar vintage.

As for the pawl, I think what Chuck suggested is most likely "or the keeper for the prawl chipped out". That kickstart stuff can be pretty tampered with you never are sure what previous folks have done with grinders or other tactics. I think someone else lately talked about shimming one of the gears in there. The one the pawl pushes on generally doesn't seem to have a spacer behind it but sometimes it does study the parts sheet on that.

Fran

 

[1Tuff500XC]

Thanks for the cover removal tips Fran. I do happen to have the Parts Manual for my other bike, and thought I'd spotted one possibly for this one. Was going to try and cross check/confirm on actual part numbers. Yeah, I'm pretty curious to see what it looks like once the cover is off myself. Recognizing there's been plenty of time for it to have been real messed with. Plus I know the engine's been taken down far, atleast once.

I'll go see about that parts manual, and do a little stareing, to familiarize myself more.