Carb Conversion

[Quasimoto]

Today I found out that the Swiss WEC enduro team has switched all its racing TE's to carburators.......(for obvious reasons).

So I gave a call to Hall's (very nice people by the way) and told them I was ready and willing to spend some $$ on a conversion. Patiently Brian took it upon himself to go part by part and figure out the feasibility of such a conversion. Unfortunately it looks like the big question is whether the stator/generator has to also be changed so everything is as is on a TXC, since TXC and TE ignitions are totally different. That is when I gave up.

The rumor, and I emphasize the word rumor, I hold from a WEC senior racer, Leo, is that the word would be that Husky got a deal on some "affordable" FI systems from Suzuki, that Suzuki uses for their farm quads models .......and that those FI system are just not up to the task. By the way Leo raced an 08 TE on the WEC circle last year, then switched to a TC which he was able to get plated (with difficulty). Now he is on a Husaberg FE 570.

Leo further mentions that the the throttle bodies were drilled to a larger size holes to allow for "better" atomization to attempt to fight the stalling issues. Finally a lot of WEC racers on 09 TE's are having stalling issues and a lot of them have converted to carbs. Those who are still on FI TE's are losing.

Please understand that the WEC racers are fast, very fast. If you think our GNCC champs are fast, please see a WEC race, they're faster. So, at this level of racing a few stalls can make a difference between win or loose, especially in a special.

So basically, this stalling issue plagues quite a few TE's. Hall's tells me that their TE's run perfectly and do not stall even in the tight stuff.

For those on TXC's, how's the carburation in the tight technical stuff ? Any stalling ?

Finally, I would consider a conversion, if there were not so many unknowns ( I do not really feel like changing a whole ignition system for this).

All my best

Phil

 

[Motosportz]

My 08 TXC450 was jetted near perfection and would still stall. Stalling is not the proprietary domain of EFI, many have had issues with stalling on many makes and models. Carbed WR250 yamahas (4 strokes) would hardly run without major rejetting / ignition remapping for example. The EFI huskys i have ridden did not seem any worse than carbed versions but maybe a little down on power.

 

[MOTORHEAD]

Good info. Quasimoto.

What about using a wiring harness from a '07 TE for the carb conversion? The OE carb is like $1500, so I'd have to go to the aftermarket for that.

 

[Xcuvator]

I have thought several times about looking into putting a carb on my 08 610.
The deal maker when I bought it was that "a big tank will be out any day". That was almost a year ago.
The bike is basiclly not suitable for adventure riding without one. So a carb conversion isn't such a goofy idea because then I could start riding it. It really burns me to ride my old KLR on rides the 610 would make so much more fun.
I don't know how much longer I will wait.

 

[Coffee]

The Suzuki quads I looked at on Saturday (LT-R450) use Kehien, not Mikuni. I know that does not mean a whole lot.

If you could follow up with Leos inside info with a little more information like which model of farm quad and if it was for sale in Europe only that would be great... otherwise I've got no reason to believe that this is anything more than an unsubstantiated rumor.


Why would Husqvarna design in an EFI unit cause they got a 'deal'? The amount of effort it will take to support that efi system dwarfs the cost of the systems many times over. The cost of changing that to a new system would be huge.

 

[Quasimoto]

Point well taken, Dean about the "Suzuki quad EFI" rumor. Again Leo is not sure at all about this, but this is the kind of talk around the WEC circles.......just like here around the trailers and vans at the races.

But I will notify Leo about trying to get info on this. He got hurt in his last round with a neck injury and cracked collarbone, so he is out for the rest of the season. By the way these WEC dudes get hurt all the time. One of the British WEC team member hit a wild boar in the woods during the Slovakia round and got hurt badly....Leo crashed because of the rain and mud and cracked a few ribs..mind you, Leo is 50 years old and still going strong.

If anyone interested in the carb conversion, Brian at Hall's has a carb off a TXC 510 that he will sell for cheap. With ECU, wiring, 510 carb, carb intake boot and IMS large tank, total was "only" $1100.00. When Brian mentioned possible need for complete new TXC or TE ignition, I sort lost motivation.

Anyhow, I have made the decision to trade in my 08 TE 450 (at an incredible loss). I am asking about TXC's because it is one of the bikes I am considering trading for. I think the Husky motor is outstanding, but if TXC's stall also, I might have to consider something else.

My CRF 250X and my WR250 did not stall like this. Has anyone looked into whether the larger displacement husky engines are more prone to stalling than the smaller ones ? A friend of mine has an 08 TE 510, and he seems to have a more serious problem than me. Are 310's less prone to stalling...could it just be crank design/weight issue ? (since TXC's stall too).

Anyhow, just rambling along.

Phil

 

[bultokid]

Very interesting read, fwiw, I have a '08 TC510 and have had no stalling issues. Bike is stock except for JD kit

 

[tadgh]

My CRF 250X and my WR250 did not stall like this. Has anyone looked into whether the larger displacement husky engines are more prone to stalling than the smaller ones ? A friend of mine has an 08 TE 510, and he seems to have a more serious problem than me. Are 310's less prone to stalling...could it just be crank design/weight issue ? (since TXC's stall too).

Anyhow, just rambling along.

Phil

i have ridden/raced the wr250, cfr250x and the te250, currently on the te250 which is carbed. never had a stalling issue and the terrain i ride in is tight woods and forestry ..very similar to what you would have seen at the wec round in wales last year.

very surprised to hear about the wec team having those problems..you should try drag husky sport from the uk into this conversation since they have had a big involvement with the bec and wec husky riders.

 

[john01]

Well I have a 09 TXC510 and I haven't stalled in 20 - 25 rides. Now when I first got it the bike would stall in my back field. I turned up the idle that first day and haven't stalled since. Now I will say I don't rock crawl but I do follow my grandson through the woods when he is on his CRF50 and when it's muddy he's pretty slow. I took it out this past Sunday to Gaskins MX track in NC which is 2.5 miles long with sand sections and some tight 180* turns and no stalls. I was gonig to install a Rekluse Pro on this bike but I don't feel the need. Well this is just my experience with my TXC 510; I love the bike BTW.

 

[jmetteer]

My 08 TXC250 generally doesn't stall unless I make a mistake. The only exception to that is on down hill stutter bumps, it will die with the clutch out in gear while rolling like someone is holding the kill switch. It will flame out and not restart with a bump start. Pull in the clutch, hit the button and it fires right up.

It has only done it 5 or 6 times but it is a strange one.

Later,

 

[Coffee]

...I think the Husky motor is outstanding, but if TXC's stall also, I might have to consider something else.

My CRF 250X and my WR250 did not stall like this. Has anyone looked into whether the larger displacement husky engines are more prone to stalling than the smaller ones ? A friend of mine has an 08 TE 510, and he seems to have a more serious problem than me. Are 310's less prone to stalling...could it just be crank design/weight issue ? (since TXC's stall too).

Anyhow, just rambling along.

Phil

Saying these things are tough to describe by typing is a huge understatement. Video & pictures help but it is not the same as actually being there in person.

My 2006 TE250 with Kehien carb will also occasionally stall just as often as the Husaberg FE450 I was riding with, especially on a warm day. Usually near the top of a rocky hill when backing off the throttle, probably because the AP has loaded up the carb with too much fuel from the bumpy uphill climb.

TT is filled with hundreds of stalling issues like this from bikes with carbs across all brands.

No that has nothing to do with efi per se but I'm just pointing that out for the casual people browsing this thread to keep things in perspective.

 

[NothingClever]

I think part of the rub is when customers purchase a fuel injected bike (typically more costly), that purchase comes with an expectation that fuel metering has been ironed out.

 

[Motosportz]

My 08 TXC250 generally doesn't stall unless I make a mistake. The only exception to that is on down hill stutter bumps, it will die with the clutch out in gear while rolling like someone is holding the kill switch. It will flame out and not restart with a bump start. Pull in the clutch, hit the button and it fires right up.

It has only done it 5 or 6 times but it is a strange one.

Later,

Jake, if you remember my 06 TC250/300 did that as well and several people reported the same one the other husky 250F's Never was resolved. Weird for sure.

 

[jlk_250]

The rumor, and I emphasize the word rumor, I hold from a WEC senior racer, Leo, is that the word would be that Husky got a deal on some "affordable" FI systems from Suzuki, that Suzuki uses for their farm quads models .......and that those FI system are just not up to the task.

This is not 100% accurate as far as I know. The iBeat FI system was developed by Mikuni to be a low cost FI system for motorcycles and was first used on Suzuki scooters. Here's a link about it.

http://www.mikuni.co.jp/e/iBeat/index.html

It seems like iBeat is turning into a dead end, with only Husqvarna embracing it. Does Suzuki even use it in its scooters anymore? Or is anyone else besides Husqvarna? A search for "iBeat" turns up only frustrated Husky owners and the writeup on the Mikuni site. You'd think that Husqvarna would be highly motivated to get their FI system considered a big asset instead of a liability.

 

[jmetteer]

Jake, if you remember my 06 TC250/300 did that as well and several people reported the same one the other husky 250F's Never was resolved. Weird for sure.

Yep, that just makes it more strange.

Later,

 

[Motosportz]

You'd think that Husqvarna would be highly motivated to get their FI system considered a big asset instead of a liability.

agreed but also understand this will come with a price tag. It is a bit of a marketing gig. The 09 Bergs i have ridden the EFI was flawless to the point of being an advantage and hands down the best running bikes i have ridden period. This is also on a 10K bike. Will husky owners and potential owners pay 500-1000 more for the bike with the fancy EFI? Maybe. I'm sure this is the struggle for the industry as they change over to EFI. In a few years they will all be EFI, work great and be reasonably priced.

now I'm hoping EFI will come to 2 strokes.

 

[MOTORHEAD]

Bergs are using Keihin FI, which seems to be what everyone is going to. And maybe Suzuki did unload some units to Husky, or they may have just bought out a contract for buying so many units. Like, "We've got a contract to buy XXX unit from Mikuni over the next X years for $XX.XX dollars each. We're going to Keihin and will sell out our Mikuni contract for XX cents on the dollar." Probable why we're stuck with it while everyone enjoys their Keihin FI's.

FI should actually be cheaper and more consistent than carbs, but we paid more for it. That would have been fine, if it worked right.

 

[Motosportz]

FI should actually be cheaper and more consistent than carbs, but we paid more for it. That would have been fine, if it worked right.

Not to sure about that when you consider the fuel pump ($700 retail), electronics, different ignition required, sensors, etc.

 

[jlk_250]

agreed but also understand this will come with a price tag. It is a bit of a marketing gig. <snip> Will husky owners and potential owners pay 500-1000 more for the bike with the fancy EFI? Maybe.

What I meant was that I would think Husqvarna would be doing everything in their power to help make the existing Mikuni FI work as well as possible. Why do we have to guess at how to set the FI up? Why does the iBeat cable/software cost $650 USD? Not only do the owners not have access to this info but it seems like the dealers don't either and sometimes I wonder if anybody at Husqvarna knows. Would a Keihin FI system be causing any fewer problems?

There is ample evidence of potential Husqvarna owners asking whether they should stay away from the '08/09 FI bikes and sadly the jury is still out. The safe route is to stay away from them. Maybe they'd get one that works great, maybe they'd buy from a dealer that can make a bad one work great, or maybe they'd end up starting a thread on CafeHusky asking how to convert their new bike back to a carb.

 

[Motosportz]

What I meant was that I would think Husqvarna would be doing everything in their power to help make the existing Mikuni FI work as well as possible. Why do we have to guess at how to set the FI up? Why does the iBeat cable/software cost $650 USD? Not only do the owners not have access to this info but it seems like the dealers don't either and sometimes I wonder if anybody at Husqvarna knows. Would a Keihin FI system be causing any fewer problems?

There is ample evidence of potential Husqvarna owners asking whether they should stay away from the '08/09 FI bikes and sadly the jury is still out. The safe route is to stay away from them. Maybe they'd get one that works great, maybe they'd buy from a dealer that can make a bad one work great, or maybe they'd end up starting a thread on CafeHusky asking how to convert their new bike back to a carb.

Points well taken.

I think another "fly in the ointment" is the EPA settings that have to come stock and then some way to make them run right after that. Just like street legal carbed bikes run like crap until completely desmoged and rejetted. It's a tough one. Isn't Husky the only EFI DS bike right now? If they were just selling closed coarse competition bikes like the RMZ/CRF i think mapping them would be WAY EZer. just a thought.