An interesting view from the inside of land management

[Dirtdame]

Over at SDAR, we got a new member recently that is actually a Park Ranger, so he is able to shed a lot of light on land use and how the government does the things it does. It's nice to have somebody from the "inside" on our side. Here's one of the posts he made, that I found interesting:

http://www.dualsport-sd.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4844&pid=46824&st=0&#entry46824

 

[WoodsChick]

Over at SDAR, we got a new member recently that is actually a Park Ranger, so he is able to shed a lot of light on land use and how the government does the things it does. It's nice to have somebody from the "inside" on our side. Here's one of the posts he made, that I found interesting:

http://www.dualsport-sd.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4844&pid=46824&st=0&#entry46824

Wow...

Lots of good points are brought up...and I'm afraid he speaks the truth.

Would he mind (or would you?) if I cut and pasted his post for some friends of mine on a usenet group?


WoodsChick

 

[Dirtdame]

Wow...

Lots of good points are brought up...and I'm afraid he speaks the truth.

Would he mind (or would you?) if I cut and pasted his post for some friends of mine on a usenet group?


WoodsChick

Go right ahead.

After all, he put it in general discussions on a public forum.

 

[raisrx251]

Everyone should read that as he has a lot of good points. Every Sunday I go riding I call my Dad and tell him I am going to Church.

 

[Xcuvator]

Over at the "big" rider regional forum I had rebuffed some of the PC statements regarding the closure of public lands. Afterwords there was no challenge to any of my statements for a couple of weeks. Then the stickied thread dropped off the face of the earth.
I plan to renew the discussion by posting a link to this fine article.

 

[BlipBlip!]

While I agree with his thinking... I don't know if that's really the problem... then again I'm from back east and our issues are a lot different than his... let's just call it the Mississippi divide.

After fighting for land rights back east for close to 30 years and working in the powersports industry as a consultant, promoter and OHV land access advocate... I'm more inclined to say the problem is really with the powersports industry and the Big 4 Japanese manufactures.

Recently in our state the issue of Dirt Bikes and legal DMV license plates have come to a head, where the NJDMV is now going after anyone who registered a dirt bike with "For Off Highway Use Only" on the paper of origin, because these vehicles are not EPA and DOT compliant.

The reason I'm bringing this up is because these off-road machines can be made to be street legal... Just look at what Husqvarna and KTM have both been able to accomplish with their street legal competition enduro bikes. (Note I'm not calling them Dual Sports, because they are not!)

In California you have the Green sticker program that restricts those bikes to where and when they're operated. Back east we don't have such a program and to operate a Dirt Bike or ATV it has to be registered as in street legal which pretty much remove ATVs from any access to public land.

Now the Japanese manufactures have been telling us for 30 years or more that these Dirt Bikes just can't be made to be street legal because of Federal EPA and DOT requirements... I say Bull Shit! What happens is you and I get stuck doing the work that the big 4 should be doing and then we get stuck arguing the whole land access thing, because it's our responsibility to make public land available for these OHVs that can't use public roads.

The problem is for many of us the solution is to just try and register one of these closed course competition dirt bikes, but in doing so we risk fines, penalties and possible jail time for trying to register their product... so that we can get access to the public land which we all own.

The point is if all the Manufactures put their energy into making these OHVs street legal including ATVs RIGHT FROM THE BEGINNING... then 90% of our land access problems would disappear overnight!

This way we could focus 100% of our energy on that 10% issue where the antis are at work.

Just Something to think about.

 

[Hwy]

I too agree with RangerDan's point of view.....but

We, the OHV users have no one to blame for this but ourselves. When the Sierra Club wants to close off a trail, they go to meetings, they hold protests, they even chain themselves to trees. When's the last time you chained yourself to an OHV trail entrance they were trying to close? That's the level of effort it is going to take to win this modern day "range war".

We know all to well that OHV'er are a passive lot at best. The methods of opposition to the anti-ohv groups has and will continue to be a dismal failure. We can stand on our soap boxes and proclaim our right...but no one is listening or caring but a few.

Given the historical track record of us as a group the next best approach lay with the big four motorcycle manufactures to step up and
do what is right for their consumer base.

Now that may be a fairytale in itself!

 

[Xcuvator]

Well having street legal bikes may allow access to public land that is open it will do little to allow access to closed land.
The problem, at least out West is the continued closure of more and more roads to any kind of vehicles, which closes the land.
Limiting access to street legal vehicles is just the first step.

 

[WoodsChick]

Well having street legal bikes may allow access to public land that is open it will do little to allow access to closed land.
The problem, at least out west is the continued closure of more and more roads to any kind of vehical, which closes the land.
Limiting access to street legal vehicals is just the first step.

Exactly. Having a plate on my bike isn't going to help me get access to all the trails that have been closed off to motorized vehicles. That's exactly what all the red carsonite markers say trail..."Closed to all motorized vehicles."

And while I don't think it is the sole responsibility of the manufacturers to direct land use policy, I do think they have a very large dog in this fight, and they are shortsighted if they think land closures are not going to have an impact on their bottom line at some point in the not-so-distant future. This goes for large aftermarket companies as well. Who's going to buy an ICO when there is no land to hold an enduro on?
Who needs a big tank for their enduro bike when the only place you can legally ride it anymore is going to be a MX track...if that? Why produce aftermarket pipes with spark arresters if the bike isn't allowed to ride on USFS land anymore?



WoodsChick

 

[columbia510]

All good points, this is just me so shoot me because I will still ride in my closed forest. The USFS and BLM are holding meetings with their eyes shut and ears closed to what the OHV community says. Enough is enough, Clear Creek closed, Deer Creek is on the way. I would love to get a misdemeanor for tethering the 510 against a no vehicle sign. The tree police need to catch me...like a deer in the national forest at 88db.

we'll all be felons soon.

 

[Dirtdame]

there are a lot of wonderful scenic rides that I go on, that I can't post any details or pictures of in a ride report on my local club website.

 

[Xcuvator]

Sure we can sneak around like criminals, which we are. How much fun is that? Always nervous about getting busted, wondering if you are being watched.

It is hard to believe it has come this far and will get far worse. I don't believe there is any stopping what is in store. The new improved America is coming from many different directions.
Change, Change, Change.

Boy, what a rant ^

 

[Dirtdame]

 

[mxracernumber1]

I've heard both sides of this argument. I get all the bike magazines and all the hunting magazines. The motorsports industry is all up at arms about Obama's "no roads" plans while the hunting community is praising it. However, this is alll very confusing for me. We all know that the motorsports industry in the U.S. revolves around the west coast. Let's face it, Californians buy more bikes (on and off-road) than the entire rest of the country put together, partly due to nearly year-round weather conditions that are condusive to riding like no where else in our country. On the other hand, there's something else to face-Californians voted Obama into office. Come on ladies and gentlemen, am I the only one who knew what I would be in for before the election???

On the other side of this issue, the same folks who are praising this type of legislation are in danger of loosing their freedom as well. Everyone knows that Obama and Pelosi are freedom's #1 enemy. They'd love to ban firearms altogether. What good does 2,000,000 acres of undeveloped land do for a hunter if he has no guns with which to hunt?

As an avid hunter, I consider myslef a steward of the environment first and foremost. Hunting seasons and bag limits promote healthy wildlife as well as a healthly environment. As I've grown as a hunter, I have come to the realization that there is more to environmental stewardship than wildlife management. I ride to work nearly everyday. Am I going to sell my paid-for Chevy Suburban? Not if Obama tried to make me, but I like the idea of using 1 gallon of gas every day as opposed to 5 and not just from an economics stand point, but from an environmental stand point as well. Those gallons add up quickly. Last summer I saved 400 gallons of gas riding my bike to work. Think if everyone in the country did the same. I try to do other things as well-as everyone should. I'm kind of caught in the middle. I love to ride, but the environment is a big concern for me as well. I have seen too much habitat in my state fall to Walmarts, golf courses and trailer parks over the last 15 years.

There must be a lot of people who don't think this is their fault. Just the other day, in one of my last issues of DR, the ditor was at it again, blaming something other than the poor decision so many people made to ellect this man who is not qualified for this job. "Think a loud muffler makes your bikes run faster? Then take it off completely and see how it runs...these are idiots whose home-schooling shows up when they try to think of anything past turning a throttle...". Yes, it's very easy to blame trail closings on some guy's loud muffler, or some one's 2-stroke dripping oil form the pipe, but the short and long of this is a lack of taking responsibilty for our choices. We made a choice (collectively-not me and I don't mind telling you) to ellect an individual who was not qualified for the job-actually lots of them. We chose a guy who is easily given to sensationalism and extreme left-wing "think with your heat and not with your brain" propoganda. Let's don't blame mufflers and 2-strokes. Stand up and face the reality that the decision we made in November, doesn't look so damned hot when riding season rolled around.

I love to ride as much as I love to do anything outdoors and I feel that it's entirely unfair for our motorsporting community to loose so much ground in places where we pay taxes too. I'm in whole-hearted agreement that trail closures are due to a bum-wrap given to us by some left-wing extremeist groups, but the real issue here isn't what he said or she said, or what his bike sounds like. We need environmental protection from ourselves-believe it, but a system of 3-ft wide trails in the mountians isn't going to keep deer from making babies. Just drive around town one evening see how many are eating the neighbor's potted plants off the front porch. I like to protect the environment and I like to ride too. I don't care who says what, closing trails is not the answer, but then neither is taking guns from law-abiding citizens. As for all of my off-road riding brothers and sisters out there, I would say you've got 4 years to think about the mistake. Agreeing with a politician on issue does not a good vote make. Look at how suseptable they are to influence by etreme ideas and extreme people. This is a better judge of character than the person's stance on the issues. This is a person, who will not lead, but follow. Now, our leader is following. This is exactly why I did not vote for him. Gun control and free food and housing sounded good in September, but all of a sudden there's nowhere to ride and no where to hunt??? Let's be grown ups and execpt the fact the real problem here is that we made a BIG mistake. Next time, vote for the right people. While we're not hunting or riding our bike over the next 3.5 years, enjoy the "change". Thank you California.

 

[Coffee]

Over at SDAR, we got a new member recently that is actually a Park Ranger, so he is able to shed a lot of light on land use and how the government does the things it does. It's nice to have somebody from the "inside" on our side. Here's one of the posts he made, that I found interesting:

http://www.dualsport-sd.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4844&pid=46824&st=0&#entry46824

Outstanding article, I believe he could do much good if he was involved with the BRC and other groups if he choose that path.

Over at the "big" rider regional forum...

Feel free to mention other forums on Cafe Husky, it's fine by me.

...I'm more inclined to say the problem is really with the powersports industry and the Big 4 Japanese manufactures....

Now the Japanese manufactures have been telling us for 30 years or more that these Dirt Bikes just can't be made to be street legal because of Federal EPA and DOT requirements...

I'm not sure why the big 4(5? 6?) don't do more to fight for our rights. They not only do nothing Honda actually contribute big $ to the Sierra club. And as I recall BMW does too but have forgotten the details, it was only mentioned in passing on a thread on TT.

The only possible scenario I can envision is the 'acceptable casualties' approach where someone at the top of the corporate food chain is willing to accept continual downsizing and eventual elimination of 'dirt roading' (nice term btw) from a financial point of view.

FYI - I added a "Land Use/Legislation" tag. Clicking on that will bring up every thread on CH that has that tag - in case someone is trying to find these types of threads.

 

[Coffee]

That picture is unfortunately our future if things continue.

I realize that many do not have the time or the intestinal fortitude to go to BLM type meetings regarding land use issues. I've been to some and it is quite frustrating.

But - at the very least talk to the people you meet. A Congress woman came up to me in a grocery store parking lot trying to get votes and I took that opportunity to ask her why all the lands were being closed. I got the distinct impression she had no idea anyone actually cared that voted. In many ways the people who write the laws really do not know what laws they are writing - they are simply doing what they think is politically beneficial.

 

[RLW]

.......... Everyone knows that Obama and Pelosi are freedom's #1 enemy.........

You forgot to include their good buddy Joe.


Every one of us can help by belonging to and supporting your local clubs and BlueRibbon Coalition (http://www.sharetrails.org/ ...who FYI: had an article in the last issue about Idaho Trails, and author was riding on a Husky)

The National Off-Highway Vehicle Conservation Council (NOHVCC)
http://www.nohvcc.org/faqs.asp , (supported by Kawasaki, Honda, KTM, etc) lists local contacts, clubs and organizations thru-out the country along with a lot of links/information to help promote OHV use.


A big problem I've seen in my decades of riding-hunting-recreating in Idaho has been the bad 2% being the most visible to the general public.
I remember seeing one TV news report on damage done to our foothills at the edge of and visible to town.
Those evil "motorcycles" were tearing up the hillside when muddy, the "motorcycle" damage being filmed on TV showed two deep 10-12" wide ruts spaced evenly about 6ft apart.
It was very common for kids in their 4x4 trucks w/38" super swamper tires and blown out glasspacks, to go grab a 12pack and head out to blast up the anything they felt like trying right at the edge of downtown. Same w/the so called dirt bikers, jump on the mx bike w/baffle out and/or burned out muffler (or straight pipe), flip the ball cap backwards and the king-of-the-hill game was on..........most of the area is now closed, with parts being opened again to hikers and mtn bikers.

Another area I've seen a big change in, has been 4wheelers (ATV's). They're everywhere now. While most are probably decent responsible riders, many places that used to be nice single track has been ripped open, torn up and trashed by the irresponsible few.

IMO this last item was a major factor in the new forest service, "closed, unless posted open" crap that came up in the last couple years.
You could see it coming. A 4wd ATV can cover some impressive terrain, so instead of walking up the draw, they would just ride over to see what's there.....the next guy would come along and see a "trail".....next weekend, someone else...then another. Before long you had a new road up the draw or to the top of the hill. This repeated on the down the road, and all across the state.......a few years ago on took my son out on his first hunting trip, we walked back in to a favorite spot and saw two ATV's coming cross country thru the draws "hunting" for deer (it's not only illegal to hunt from a vehicle here, but area is also closed to off-trail travel)
I think the forest service couldn't keep up and didn't have the resources to enforce it, so they did (& are doing) an inventory of roads/trails from obsolete forest maps, field verified some small part of it, then rushed out these crappy travel plan "maps" rushed out. The so called "maps" I've seen are very poor quality and greatly lacking in detail......I believe the BLM is working on a similar thing now.

In the last two years I've had a place our family has camped/hunted out of for 20yrs, closed because it wasn't on the new travel plan (established camp area off a 60's era logging road).
Another spot couple miles down the road, a mile long road to a trailhead parking area was closed because in wasn't on the new travel plan......now you have someone drop you off at the main road (due to no parking) and hike in to the trailhead.
We also just recently had the Owyhee Wilderness area shoved down our throats on BLM land where I hunted and biked.....at least in this case, there are a couple access points left (I think - no official maps have been made yet)

 

[Coffee]

The National Off-Highway Vehicle Conservation Council (NOHVCC)
http://www.nohvcc.org/faqs.asp , (supported by Kawasaki, Honda, KTM, etc) lists local contacts, clubs and organizations thru-out the country along with a lot of links/information to help promote OHV use.
...

I read that, searched for Honda, etc and found no reference to manufacturers support that organization. I did find this wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Off-Highway_Vehicle_Conservation_Council

Thought I read some kind of announcement regarding this topic, do you know of any links? I could dig through the tax documents for that 501c but would rather not.

 

[RLW]

Sorry, I thought I still had some things bookmaked, but guess not.....American Honda is listed as a corporate sponsor http://www.nohvcc.org/donors/donorscorp.asp (their logo is on the homepage as a 2009 conference sponsor)

I just remembered American Honda along with members from our Idaho Trail Machine Association being involved in the early stages of the NOHVCC and promoting it at our local chapter meeting years ago.....I think even at a couple past state rides.

 

[Coffee]

Thanks for the link!