How important is a maximum capacity bearing near the ignition?

[fran...k.]

Well I am migrating my 1988 430 into some slightly earlier cases. I took the bearings out got some new ones cleaned everything and got the crank in with the bearings in their bores to my liking but it was noisy. See why

I called Halls to get the other bearings I didn't get yet and had the guy go in the back and count the balls on the replacement they say everyone is buying. He didn't count near as high as 14 balls per side. I also like that metal cage as I have a heat gun I use a lot and don't know about nylon like he said theirs was.

Admittedly the 430 had the nylon non maximum bearing and an elephant on the rod so I would suspect someone was already in there.

I guess if I want to pay $91.82 www.bdi-usa.com will get me an MRC one from a warehouse in Ohio. I forgot to verify c3 but it is a 5205 M instead of 3205

Anyone have any theories about how necessary this maximum capacity is. If I go on ebay I can find one like I want for a Jawa and surely my 430 will make more shaking and power than one of those.

Fran

 

[n4hhe]

McMaster http://www.mcmaster.com/ is a good source for bearings. Not the least expensive but has a good selection if you know what you want.

 

[fran...k.]

The place the wife works have an account with them I think they get fastners like wood screws from that vendor.

as for bearings, like c3 ones which one should use in things like motorcycles because they fit just a little tighter than non c3 and maximum capacity and actually curious about a brand I am not impressed. 25x52x20.6 They have the open one the shielded one and the sealed one that is all they seem to think you need to know. Real bearing places have a lot more than three choices. Also strange is when you look at what specs they list the show 9000 rpm rating for both the sealed one which runs in grease and the open one. Isn't it standard that the open ones which generally run in oil are rated higher or the specs usually list two ratings depending on lubrication method?

If you know they have the c3 version with the maximum of 14 balls per side let me know and I will call on the phone.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#ball-and-roller-bearings/=b227fl

Update,

I went and got a USA made by the american division of SKF bearing with the loading slot and a metal cage and c3 rated. I just discovered it only has 13 balls per side instead of 14 like the origional. The guy at halls said he counted 10 but the standard ones in pictures seem to have nine. http://www.ebatmus.com/cart.epl?Buy=1&Quantity=1&ItemID=560659&Query=5205m The place had exxon and mobil hydraulic oil in pails so I am getting a quote on exxon univis J-26 not sure how that will turn out John deere hydraulic fluid is less $ than what they had.

I still am willing to discuss why Halls would state the origional version is not available when the origional equipment source skf makes a maximum capacity bearing in that size. Strange they go to inch series on the thickness.

Fran

 

[IMvintage]

Let us know how they work out.

 

[fran...k.]

They will work out fine, I once bought a new crank for my 82 420 auto because it was $285 not over $500 like most cranks and the rod kit was $150. I didn't know about the loading slot business and used a standard bearing with no issues. That 430 like I stated had the non maximum capacity bearing and a cagiva ensigna rod in it, I made a custom pipe and started snapping recycled chains and had to go to a new high quality chain and the reason it went down for repairs wasn't that non maximum capacity nylon cage bearing. The idea is to get the crank in place so that the bearings don't have side loads. The bad bearing as one might expect came from an internet deal which was ready to go in excellent condition. Have to wonder how much of those chips went into the big end of the connecting rod.

 

[retro rocket]

Fran,
During the rebuild of my 73 CR400 I chose to use later 250 cases, partly due to the condition and also because they had an oil channel that I believe is designed to cool the back row of the ignition side bearings... the older cases did not have this and I believe Husky added it for a good reason - Does your case have the same oil channel... its drilled at a diagonal angle from the top of the crank case aperture, 3mm in diameter.

I bring this up as I notice only one side of your bearing has failed.

Tom

 

[pcnsd]

Well I am migrating my 1988 430 into some slightly earlier cases. I took the bearings out got some new ones cleaned everything and got the crank in with the bearings in their bores to my liking but it was noisy. See why

I called Halls to get the other bearings I didn't get yet and had the guy go in the back and count the balls on the replacement they say everyone is buying. He didn't count near as high as 14 balls per side. I also like that metal cage as I have a heat gun I use a lot and don't know about nylon like he said theirs was.

Admittedly the 430 had the nylon non maximum bearing and an elephant on the rod so I would suspect someone was already in there.

I guess if I want to pay $91.82 www.bdi-usa.com will get me an MRC one from a warehouse in Ohio. I forgot to verify c3 but it is a 5205 M instead of 3205

Anyone have any theories about how necessary this maximum capacity is. If I go on ebay I can find one like I want for a Jawa and surely my 430 will make more shaking and power than one of those.

Fran

The double bearings from McM Carr for this size have a bunch fewer balls. This bearing is only lubed by the premix. Last I checked, John Lefever at Vintage Husky had NOS bearings (2009). It was about $100.00, he told me a lesser bearing would fail and take the Motoplat with it due to heat, the inner rotor contacting the outer or both. I thought the $100.00 was a good investment at the time.

Regards,
Paul

 

[fran...k.]

Whether a new old stock with 14 balls and a design where you can shake a ball out and rotate and shake another ball out vs a new 13 balls one made with the most modern techniques (hopefully) and the balls held in such a way than none can be shaken out is choice to ponder. There is no M for maximum capacity on the bearing (i didn't see such marking) so it would be easy to just get one with nine balls per side by the numbers. I am not reading the manual on how to put them in but must have put the cases together 20 times until I was happy with the placement of that bearing. I ended up using the seal holding aluminum piece, no gasket a 10 thousands thick shim and the four bolts one eighth turn from tight and then press the bearing against that. I am going to bore out the old one a little and grind on the outer race some and then put the balls back and epoxey it solid so I can measure where the bearing is supposed to go with the equipment I have and hopefully next time I will be satisfied with how the crank spins first time. You are not supposed to push that double row bearing against the aluminum bolt on seal holding piece and leaving the shim washer loose are you?

fran

Added later,

Yes to the lube hole feeding the outer row of balls. The loading slot is found pointing out so the row that failed was the inner one.

Now it is a spacer for measuring or maybe just put the crank in the drive side case pulled in tight (I made a plate which bolts in the four spots so the bearings stay in plane) put the cases together without a ignition side bearing, drop this one in, snug down the aluminum seal holder thing, dis assemble and presss the bearing into the heated case down to that as a stop.

 

[Up-tite]

Just so you know 80% of the bearings sold in the USA and world wide today are Counterfit.........................

The 3205 bearing is a radial thrust bearing whereas the 5205 is the same size but is a angular thrust,wrong application for a main bearing.

 

[GaryM]

3205 C3 Maximum style double row - Made by ZKL is a good replacement bearing. I have talked to the main engineer for applications , this is correct application.
Though made in east europe the quality of steel used is a quality that meets are large two stroke specs we need. Please verify Maximum and C3.

I also talked to several Japanese engineers from various companies. Had some interesting feedback. Honda for example are requesting their own spec bearings for production bikes - they are a higher quality than
standard Japanese made bearing for resale. They also said their is a flood of Chinese bearings everywhere like noted above.

Please note if you look at the specs in the Bearing Manufacturers Supply Catalogue you can see the same bearing size number - but may have different quality for different applications

I have been using the Koyo for my Tranny bearings and the ZKL for the 3205 replacement. Phillip has them along with others. Please double check for C3 marked on bearing race Oh count your balls on this bearing

 

[Up-tite]

Took me 2 years to get them made but I have them Genuine FAG 3205.
Couple hundred so will have them for a little while.
Later George

 

[fran...k.]

Just so you know 80% of the bearings sold in the USA and world wide today are Counterfit.........................

The 3205 bearing is a radial thrust bearing whereas the 5205 is the same size but is a angular thrust,wrong application for a main bearing.

The one I got 5205M as I recall is an angular contact bearing. What is the point of going to a bearing supply place asking for one thing and get told something else is the same. I would be pretty sure I had those pieces with me when I went. Most of their business is industry hopefully it doesn't matter all that much.

I found bearings without the loading slot in two 1988 430 engines and another guy on here found one in an 1987. What went in the four strokes on the next section on here older single cam?




later

I can't even search up 5205 from mrc today they direct me to a 3205. I did find this skf web document,http://www.skf.com/skf/productcatal...tableName=1_3_3&presentationType=3&startnum=3 while I don't see any M they seem to class both as angular contact. Have to check some of the catalogs I got in the good old days before the internet.

 

[GaryM]

Bearing question. I have the odd find a while back. A brand new 500 never run lower end. ( upper end used for professional lumber jack Chain saw events -how about that) Cases were split for parts.

Going to build this engine. No pitting or rust can be seen on bearings. Would you use the standard Plastic cage bearing or replace it for metal cage ??

George - fantastic on producing a run of bearings . I would trust that German and Austrian produced steel more than any - its used by the Formula one teams to made all their gears etc.

Should I use that installed new older bearing or replace it??


PS - i would give anything to see what kind of engine the guy crafted using a 500 top end for a chain saw !!

 

[Up-tite]

I like the plastic ball retainer bearings , reasons they won't rust,less likely for any one of the many rivets to come loose which allows the retainer to self distruct in the motor, they won't come apart like the mains on the later SNR bearings do, if they do will give more warning to shut it down giving feed back as vibration .
Unlike steel cages they send metal thru the motor before the major BOOM.
Later George

 

[Picklito]

So George, what do you have for us currently? Good max load non-counterfeit plastic cages? Would be nice to have this settled and have a source once and for all! Thx.

 

[Up-tite]

I have Genuine, FAG 3205. 2RSR . C3. 100 sets in stock
Reason for the 2RSR Sealed is to keep from getting contaminted.
Just pop the seals out after installed in cases and before crank is put in.
$100.00 ea.
Later George

 

[Kartwheel68]

I like the plastic ball retainer bearings , reasons they won't rust,less likely for any one of the many rivets to come loose which allows the retainer to self distruct in the motor, they won't come apart like the mains on the later SNR bearings do, if they do will give more warning to shut it down giving feed back as vibration .
Unlike steel cages they send metal thru the motor before the major BOOM.
Later George

I agree. Bombardier went to plastic cages in their SeaDoos in the late 90s for the very reasons George listed.

 

[husqyhamm]

Have used plastic caged bearings on quite a few engines which had the daylights run out of them. NO failures as yet. NSK (personal preference) and SKF.

 

[fran...k.]

My appologies if I did it in earlier posts, the word plastic probably should at least be attempted to avoid in this discussion. I didn't look up the origion of the word and not sure how it translates. Plastic deformation, bending, like a piece of electric conduit heated and re shaped, like a front fender resting against something all winter and pointing off to the side in the spring.

Peek, thermosetting polymer supposedly is set in a specific position.

Anyone find a polymer caged needle bearing on a piston wrist pin in a modern bike? Brush cutter, leaf blower, ultra light airplane engine etc. They make those bearings found in other applications.

 

[Kartwheel68]

SeaDoos have loose non-caged needle bearings in the wrist pin, pain it the rear to install.