BMW and Husky's Massive Miscalculation?

[Norman Foley]

To anyone who doesn't know me, I'll preface this post.... I'm a long time Husky rider and big supporter of the "Brand". I've ridden and still ride... Swedish, Cagiva and BMW Huskys. I rode my '93 WXE350 today, but I'm really a 2 stroke guy. My main bike is an '09 WR125, with a Factory 144 kit. It is a fantastic smallbore off road bike. Onto the meat of my post....

Did BMW and Husky misread the market when it came to 2 strokes? Will it have massive ramifications for the company.... maybe. Is it going to hurt Husky NA.... I think so! KTM and Gas Gas seem to have read it correctly and are updating their 2 strokes. The next generation of Husky 2 strokes will appear in 2014, which is also the year that E6 EU emission standards come into effect. E6 standards will align the EU with USA (Also CARB) standards. My best guess is, that is when Direct Injection 2 strokes will appear to meet the new standard.

The problem? What to do until then? Husky is losing market share in a resurging part of the off road segment. Husky has a great 125, that was updated in '09, but the 250/300cc bike is the main part of the 2 stroke market and Husky has ignored it pitifully. Yes the WR300 came along in '09, but it wasn't enough. The bike is strong, but sorely outdated. Part of it may be perception, but some of it is true. Just putting the old 6 speed transmission back in the WR250/300 would have been a great step. In the cash starved Cagiva period, there was no money to do 2 stroke and 4 stroke developement at the same time, so 2 strokes suffered. Gas Gas is the opposite, as it can't get its 4 stroke game on.

BMW has no shortage of money and Husky was able to develope 449/511 around the BMW G450X engine in a relatively short period of time. So.... why could they have not found a way to engineer the 250/300 engine (right hand countershaft and all) into the newer semi perimeter frame, add the 6 speed back in and even possibly electric start? This would have been a great move to keep in the game until a whole new generation of 2 strokes appeared.

I've heard every year since '09 that new Husky 2 strokes are coming next year. My dealer is losing sales to KTM and Gas Gas, mainly over 6 speeds and electric start. This is a fact, even with lower price of the Husky. In this economy people are moving back to 2 strokes, for lower intial cost and lower maintenance costs. The day when your 4 stroke needs an overhaul, can lead to sticker shock. Husky has some excellent 4 strokes, but even some loyal Husky guys have no interest in riding them and other potential Husky 2 stroke buyers are going elswhere. Husky guys on this BB are drooling over new Gas Gas 2 strokes and even I'm considering buy a Husaberg 2 stroke. I can hardly believe I just said that!

I think this a grand miscalculation.......

 

[TXC&KTM]

I tend to agree, but it may be the case that there only so much that can be done at once. The excellent TE line and new TXC are the tops, IMHO...best in the world in their respective categories. I think we assume that its much easier than it is...and few companies have had a rougher start to the new millennium. I think we need more patience and boards like this to coax the brand along...

I've been wanting a small bore 2t for a while, and can't stop looking at the 150xc pumpkin...Ultimately, the market will speak and I don't thing HuskyNA is turning a deaf ear, though they may be late to the party...

 

[WoodsChick]

Well said, Norman. I think you're spot-on. I came very close to purchasing a `10 GasGas but instead went with the `09 WR125. I'll readily admit that price was a huge factor. If Husky had updated the WR250/300 like they did the 125 I would be riding one of those today. 4-strokes have their place, for sure, and I love my 610 like no other, but for real dirt riding the 2-stroke can't be beat.
I'd love to see Husky put some effort into their 2-stroke line before it's too late.

 

[john01]

I totally agree with Norman too. I love my 08 CR144 but like I said in another post...a 2012 GasGas will be parked in the same garage . I waited to see what Husky was going to do and the black frame silver wheels just don't cut it. Maybe if BMW would start making 2-stroke cars some of that would transfer over. Like Keshawn say's "come on man"!!!

 

[water racer]

I think it is hard to completely turn around a company in two years, they have a lot going on with producing the new 4 strokes, new facility in cali, and oh by the way last I heard they were dominating WEC.
I think it may be best to wait until they can get a new bike totaly right before it is released instead of a patchwork job. In the meantime I am riding a tc250, after all most of the worlds offroad races are won on 4-strokes(I am a 2 stroke guy) and I don't think many of us on this forum have the skills to wear out a 4 stroke in the woods.
Yeah I would like everything to happen RIGHT NOW and blow KTM out of the water, just being realistic and maybe Husqvarna is just Husqvarna and there will always be screw-ups but I am standing by them for now.
GP

 

[dartyppyt]

Norm,

You did an excellent write up! I am now working on my WR 250 to get it where it needs to be. It has less than 20 hours on it, wasn't crazy about it and suspension didn't work. Then jumped on the bogging 125 band wagon. Never had a bike that took me 3mos. To jet. My son said the other night, I've never seen you put so much work in the bikes to get them to perform and fix the suspension. I told him he was correct. Most time you go buy a bike, do some jet tweeking and finally the suspension. Your usually done and go have some fun. In long run it my be worth the extra to get a bike that is more up to date.

I agree with Water Racer as well. It is like a big ship that takes miles to get it to turn.

Like to see:

A 200

6 speed

E start

Hydraulic clutches

Updated frames instead of new graphics

Adjustable pegs

Get the linkage on top swingarm, maybe cts?

Dual map switch ignition

$5000 Husky loyalty discount for returning purchasers (yeah right! Just a joke)

 

[Motosportz]

Great discussion.

All they need to do is toss e-start and WR 6 speed and dominate the market. The bike is dated but the motor is much loved by all and is an anvil. Upgrade the suspension and run it. Then all the money you saved can be used for 2014 which everyone will need to develop for.

 

[lankydoug]

Good post and very thoughtful and I have thought much the same way about the brands you speak of, however in my case GasGas lost a sale to Husky because the GasGas was overpriced for what I wanted out of a motorcycle. I have thought that Husky may know exactly what they are doing here. Let's stop and consider that because Husky has not spent mountains of money doing R&D on their 2t models they may be making more money per bike selling "outdated" WRs at 2/3 the price. If Husky is in fact planning to build a DI 2t they may be smarter to redesign their engine only once rather than trying to add DI to an existing engine. I'm a die hard 2t guy and have no interest in any 4t enduro or mx machine. I don't need cutting edge technology to trail ride and enter an enduro or hare scramble here and there. I would much rather have the extra $2,500 in my pocket. If I was a AAA rider competing in a points chase somewhere I would probably own a GasGas or if all the bikes were the same price I would definitely own a GasGas.

It's been a year since I bought my 09 WR250 new in the crate for $4,895 and I have zero buyers remorse. If I had to choose between my $4,895 Husky and the $8,500 2012 Gasser I would still choose the Husky. The only bike I feel like I may have missed out on was the 09 CR and WR125s that were going for $3,900... Wow talk about bang for your buck!

On a humorous side note, I did come pretty close to buying a 4t. It was an 09 Suzuki 450 enduro with FI, brand new for $4,800 with 1.9% financing but when the salesman was filling out the paperwork for the financing he scoffed at me acting as if I was wasting his time because in his opinion I couldn't afford it. Two months later I drove by his shop and showed him my new WR250 that I had paid cash for and kindly thanked him for being a jackass.

 

[Joe Chod]

I don't get the previous "come a long way in 2 years " part. Husky NA has damn near nothing to do with the development and research of the bikes. They may give some feedback to the factory in Italy but Husky NA in Cali is just a big enourmous dealership that just sells to dealers. If you think they have the finger on the pulse of what happens next in Italy...please take off your American-centric rose colored glasses. They are little in the decison making process.

 

[ghte]

Most of the guys I ride with are on KTM 300 or Husabergs. They all love them for their flickability and lightness. I agree that Husky has let this resurgent interest in smokers slip by them.
Personally I would have liked them to focus on the smokers ahead of the Nuda. Get the bread and butter products right then branch out.

 

[dfeckel]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I will own the first full-size DI 2-stroke off road bike that comes to the American market, no matter what brand it is. I would love it to be Husky, but I'm thinking it'll probably be either orange/white or yellow/blue. Once Husky has a DI 2-stroke, I'll dump the KTM/Berg and go back to Husky.

Yes, yes, I know that any form of injection will ruin one of the 2-stroke's main assets (simplicity), but I'm willing to sacrafice simplicity for cleaner and more predictable fuel delivery, as well as eliminating the smoke. I have no nostalgic, romantic feelings for the smoke. It pollutes like a tire fire, and to Joe Public, who I ride past frequently in the woods of NJ, it must look awful. Give me a clean-running, light-ish weight injected 2-stroke, and I'll be a happy camper.

 

[Norman Foley]

On the turning the ship around thing..... 449/511 and CR65 show that Husky could develope a bike quickly around an existing engine. Why was the 449/511 put into production? I assume to use up front loaded G450X engine production, when that bike ceased production. Italy has already put the word out, that the 449/511 is gone for MY '14. It will be replaced with an all Husky bike, which I assume is X-lite engine built for bigger displacement. I think that the fact that Husky did not use the 449 in EWC this past year and will run neither 449 or 511 next year, indictes it's a "Dead Man Walking". The WR250 andd 300 are done in EWC also, so you can read the same thing.

Was this a good use of Husky's resources to build a BMW engined stop gap model? I guess if the 4 stroke market kept growing, at the 2 strokes expense. Further refinement of the excellent, but heavy 450/510 and at least the 6 Speed, e start and map switch for the 250/300 would have been a better road to '14. I still think the new frame for the 250/300 would have been the icing on the cake. This is personal preference on my part. I rode my '02 WR125 until '09, because I can't stand the ergos(Especially with an IMS tank) of the '06-08 125 or the '06-'12 250/300.

 

[Norman Foley]

On the turning the ship around thing..... 449/511 and CR65 show that Husky could develope a bike quickly around an existing engine. Why was the 449/511 put into production? I assume to use up front loaded G450X engine production, when that bike ceased production. Italy has already put the word out, that the 449/511 is gone for MY '14. It will be replaced with an all Husky bike, which I assume is X-lite engine built for bigger displacement. I think that the fact that Husky did not use the 449 in EWC this past year and will run neither 449 or 511 next year, indictes it's a "Dead Man Walking". The WR250 andd 300 are done in EWC also, so you can read the same thing.

Was this a good use of Husky's resources to build a BMW engined stop gap model? I guess if the 4 stroke market kept growing, at the 2 strokes expense. Further refinement of the excellent, but heavy 450/510 and at least the 6 Speed, e start and map switch for the 250/300 would have been a better road to '14. I still think the new frame for the 250/300 would have been the icing on the cake. This is personal preference on my part. I rode my '02 WR125 until '09, because I can't stand the ergos(Especially with an IMS tank) of the '06-08 125 or the '06-'12 250/300.

As Joe said..... Husky NA is just a big dealer for dealers. Husky has had to do little or nothing with distributors in the rest of the world, as it was business as usual. They just started writing checks to Husqvarna Motorcycles, insted of MV Augusta.

 

[ray_ray]

A grand miscalculation? Bmw purchasing Husqvarna initially might qualify for the grand scale ... Most any decision after the purchase would be good or bad, but not grand, unless sales numbers go through the roof on a new decision ... Below is what I see from bmw to-date... Items 1 and 4 seem like a bigger risk than item 5 ... In any event, it is most likely on bmw shoulders (not Huskys) as they allocate the money to be spent most likely in the yearly budgets ... Has bmw ever spent a dollar on a 2T engine?

I'm down with bmw owning Husky as of this date ... I see many good things happening today.... Did you hear Husqvarna was in the starting gate at most of the MX2 races in EU in 2011?

1) Killed current 4t 450 bike \ introduced new bike off previous model from parent company
2) Retained current 4t 250 bikes
3) Enhanced current 4t 310 bikes
4) Add some street fighter models
5) Retrained current 2T models ...
6) Enhanced current 4t TC models

To anyone who doesn't know me, I'll preface this post.... I'm a long time Husky rider and big supporter of the "Brand". I've ridden and still ride... Swedish, Cagiva and BMW Huskys. I rode my '93 WXE350 today, but I'm really a 2 stroke guy. My main bike is an '09 WR125, with a Factory 144 kit. It is a fantastic smallbore off road bike. Onto the meat of my post....

Did BMW and Husky misread the market when it came to 2 strokes? Will it have massive ramifications for the company.... maybe. Is it going to hurt Husky NA.... I think so! KTM and Gas Gas seem to have read it correctly and are updating their 2 strokes. The next generation of Husky 2 strokes will appear in 2014, which is also the year that E6 EU emission standards come into effect. E6 standards will align the EU with USA (Also CARB) standards. My best guess is, that is when Direct Injection 2 strokes will appear to meet the new standard.

Maybe it will hurt ... No killer though ... If Husky is with bmw in 2014 and a new bike is just appearing, bmw will ride it out at least 1 more year with Husky making the true Husky riders winners riding with bmw at least 4-5 more years...

The problem? What to do until then? Husky is losing market share in a resurging part of the off road segment. Husky has a great 125, that was updated in '09, but the 250/300cc bike is the main part of the 2 stroke market and Husky has ignored it pitifully. Yes the WR300 came along in '09, but it wasn't enough. The bike is strong, but sorely outdated. Part of it may be perception, but some of it is true. Just putting the old 6 speed transmission back in the WR250/300 would have been a great step. In the cash starved Cagiva period, there was no money to do 2 stroke and 4 stroke developement at the same time, so 2 strokes suffered. Gas Gas is the opposite, as it can't get its 4 stroke game on.

There is no problem ... Either ride what Husky has or buy something else ...

BMW has no shortage of money and Husky was able to develope 449/511 around the BMW G450X engine in a relatively short period of time. So.... why could they have not found a way to engineer the 250/300 engine (right hand countershaft and all) into the newer semi perimeter frame, add the 6 speed back in and even possibly electric start? This would have been a great move to keep in the game until a whole new generation of 2 strokes appeared.

These are all business decisions ... Good or bad... just business conducted by VPs at a meeting ... You probably would not like what is said at their meetings ... I was never at too may meetings I enjoyed at work...

I've heard every year since '09 that new Husky 2 strokes are coming next year. My dealer is losing sales to KTM and Gas Gas, mainly over 6 speeds and electric start. This is a fact, even with lower price of the Husky. In this economy people are moving back to 2 strokes, for lower intial cost and lower maintenance costs. The day when your 4 stroke needs an overhaul, can lead to sticker shock. Husky has some excellent 4 strokes, but even some loyal Husky guys have no interest in riding them and other potential Husky 2 stroke buyers are going elswhere. Husky guys on this BB are drooling over new Gas Gas 2 strokes and even I'm considering buy a Husaberg 2 stroke. I can hardly believe I just said that!

All those other brand bikes are very good....we know that ...

This web site should be rename to EU Bikes Cafe ... ~10% of the threads in some forums here are about non-Husky, EU brand bikes or are pointed to other brands and their greatness... I'm happy to say I've never seen (other than a photo) the non-husky brand of choice that is so loved here on this site today and will be happy to finish off my days the same way.

I think this a grand miscalculation.......

Refer to the above ...

 

[Motosportz]

I don't get the previous "come a long way in 2 years " part. Husky NA has damn near nothing to do with the development and research of the bikes. They may give some feedback to the factory in Italy but Husky NA in Cali is just a big enourmous dealership that just sells to dealers. If you think they have the finger on the pulse of what happens next in Italy...please take off your American-centric rose colored glasses. They are little in the decison making process.

BMW bought husky to make money. Its a business. As rapped up as we get for our LOVE of the brand they simply see how to sell stuff. The 449/511 brought a lot of attention to husky, is a good bike and if it was a stop gap so be it. Seems like the EZest route to a stop gap (already had the motor, CTS etc.) and seems the perfect place to test this new tech. Come up with a new look (they did) and introduce it there (they did). The TC449 is said to be pretty darn good this year and I flat love my TE511 for an extreme DS bike it is near impossible to beat. My KTM DS riding friends are envious after riding mine and i can't wait to get my bike back. It is far from a flop, that's for sure. "Cali is just a big enormous dealership that just sells to dealers"... I don't see it that way. I believe Ty and team have a lot of input through Cali reps to Italy. We asked for the TE250 low and got it, the 310, the TXC line and not TXC310. I think labeling them as "a big enormous dealership" is unfortunate and probably disappointing to those that work there. Yes a huge part of their effort is sales, this is a retail business. But it seems to be populated by good people that are trying hard. It is EZ to sit on the internet and believe we have all the answers and that people whom do this for a living for years have their heads up there you know what but behind the corporate curtain is another story and battle to be fought. They will listen to the loudest customers and respond however they feel they can make the most money, it's a business.

I really would like to see this NOT turn into a BMW / husky NA / Cali bashing thread, i am so sick of that via HR on the other site. I don't wear rose colored glasses but do understand this is a business run by a huge successful company with massive resources and out of the box thinking. Husky has never had this type of effort, money and collaboration to work with. I find it funny we are bashing BMW for not changing a bike that dates back decades. I hope they make the right moves and are successful with the brand that could have just died many times. From where i sit I see new models, lots of mag press, bikes here early, the good dealers happy, progress being made and rumors of lots of new bikes. We could still be toiling along with no money and limited bikes like we have for years while development money gets sucked away for street racing. I will still give BMW the benifit of the doubt that they will do well with the brand. I bet this same conversation was going strong when The sweeds sold husky to Italy and the Swedish designed bikes were offed for Cagiva bikes. Time will tell.

As for 2 st DFI bikes none of the manufactures have released one and many have been working on it for years. Might not be as simple and marketable (complexity) as we think. I also think there will be some back lash like with the EFI 4 strokes as these machines become more complex and expensive and require special tools and software to maintain.

 

[Harbinger]

i don't belive that BMW will put anything out for sale before they are confident that it will work properly. They do not use their buyers as guinea pigs

 

[krieg]

i don't belive that BMW will put anything out for sale before they are confident that it will work properly. They do not use their buyers as guinea pigs

You mean like Mini? BMW has gotten too big for its pants. The automotive division is losing its luster due to quality control issues that were unheard of 10 to 15 years ago. Mini is a joke (ask me how I know after owning one for 4 months). I think BMW will eventually be good for Husky when (if) the economy turns around. But, IMHO, BMW overall is a shell of its former self in the quality arena.

 

[Harbinger]

I don't know anything about the mini, exept that it was build by Austin. And the fact that british cars can be a real pita, i know it because i used to own a Austin once and i will never buy a english car again.

The Mk I Mini One, Cooper and Cooper S used some version of the reliable, Brazilian-built Tritec engine, co-developed by Chrysler & BMW; the Mini One D used a Toyota-built diesel engine. In August 2006, BMW announced that future engines would be built in the UK, making the car essentially British-built again; final assembly took place at Oxford, and the body pressings were made in nearby Swindon at BMW's Swindon Pressings Ltd subsidiary.

Brazilian built engine developed by Chrysler and assembeled in brittain, that thing must to be a bad joke to the consumers, i would not buy a car that was made in Brazil or by Chrysler. I think i'll stick with German cars as i have done most of my life, they have never let me down. And it's not my fault that you bought a woman car.

 

[krieg]

And it's not my fault that you bought a woman car.

So I guess it's ok that I bought it for my wife?... and it still turned out to be a HUGE piece of $hit? Anytime you want to test your "manly" German cars against something that will suck the paint off of them... come to North Carolina USA... I've got Shelby Mustang in the garage that's just waiting to see how much of man you are.

 

[john01]

I thnk the OP's main point is.....Husky/BMW needs to step up the 2-stroke program. I don't just blame BMW as stated they just came on board but Husky has had some time to step it up. It just looks like all the money and effort is going into the 4-strokes. Around here working a check point the past two years over 350-450 bikes come by and over 90% of them are two strokes. I do like the new 65 but will we get it??? Come on Husky bring on the 50's 65's 85's and revamp the 250 and 300's. No slam on Husky NA here I just got tired of waiting.