310 starter gear casing broken - need help please!

[Judgie]

Hi,

2011 TE310 and the starter gear casing has broken (8000A7070). I was able to get a replacement fairly fast but can’t seem to disassemble the old one, there appears to be an axle key preventing me from removing the starter shaft from the housing (8000A7065). Short of bashing the hell out of it, can anyone me figure this out? Have a ride in 2 days and was really hoping to get it running.

If I can’t get the starter shaft out, I’m thinking I can at least reassemble without and simply kick start. So my second question would be if it’s ok ton kick start without the starter shaft?

Thanks

 

[Trenchcoat85]

Hi,

2011 TE310 and the starter gear casing has broken (8000A7070). I was able to get a replacement fairly fast but can’t seem to disassemble the old one, there appears to be an axle key preventing me from removing the starter shaft from the housing (8000A7065). Short of bashing the hell out of it, can anyone me figure this out? Have a ride in 2 days and was really hoping to get it running.

If I can’t get the starter shaft out, I’m thinking I can at least reassemble without and simply kick start. So my second question would be if it’s ok ton kick start without the starter shaft?

Thanks

Looks like an internal circlip in the photo? pull it, pull the bearing and the bevel maybe.


And take the cap off on the end of the worm shaft (mine looks like a 12mm allen, maybe bigger the shop manual says 10mm allen)
let me check the parts book. [later- yeah, that looks about right]

btw, a kickback is a symptom of a sheared flywheel key- better check for that AND a tight enough valve clearance on the left exhaust.... or you may do it again (this time taking out your ca$e). I wonder if a bad trigger coil could cause an ignition advance.

I guess I should explain: when the engine tries to spin backwards, the sprag gets engaged... turning the ring gear, which next tries to turn the worm [and you just can't turn a worm like that; exactly like a cresent wrench or vise when trying to pry the jaws open: the worm ain't turning. well, acme threads but it's a worm still] and so the worm instead gets launched towards your airfilter. then one or more things breaks: sprag, ring gear/hub, worm shaft, case, or worm shaft mount. The starter motor itself should come through the disaster just fine, though.

theoretically, I can see this happening maybe if you roll backwards in gear, engine off... & then pop the clutch. anyone??

 

[Judgie]

#39 wont budge and I think it’s because of #45

 

[Trenchcoat85]

#39 wont budge and I think it’s because of #45

so you got the end cap off (#49) and the other bevel gear (#28) out... including the nut (#47)? I ask that because it does not look like it from your picture.

also I added a little worm drive theory to my first post while you were answering.

good luck.

 

[Trenchcoat85]

 

[Judgie]

Thanks for the input trenchcoat85

So yes, cap, circlip, bolt and washer are removed but the worm drive does not just slide out. It appears there is an axle key preventing it from just dropping, see pic below.

I’m not too happy about how this all happened but I don’t believe it to be kickback. When I notice oil spewing out of the bike and went digging for the issue I found the worm gear housing bolts to be lose. Enough so that this was likely be the problem, there was just enough play that with all the torque in that area it exposed a weak spot. But, I could always be wrong and I will check my valve clearances

Do you think I’d be good to run the bike without the worm gear? I am able to reassemble without it so the engine would be sealed. I would have to kick start but I am uncertain if there are other concerns but doing so.

Thanks again.

 

[Judgie]

Update

Had an idea to use a brass pipe as spacer to protect the worm drive gear and give it room to drop while I used a bit of elbow grease on the nut from above. Everything is now disassembled and I’m good to go.

I will repost after checking the valve clearances to confirm

Thanks again

 

[Trenchcoat85]

Thanks for the input trenchcoat85

So yes, cap, circlip, bolt and washer are removed but the worm drive does not just slide out. It appears there is an axle key preventing it from just dropping, see pic below.

I’m not too happy about how this all happened but I don’t believe it to be kickback. When I notice oil spewing out of the bike and went digging for the issue I found the worm gear housing bolts to be lose. Enough so that this was likely be the problem, there was just enough play that with all the torque in that area it exposed a weak spot. But, I could always be wrong and I will check my valve clearances

Do you think I’d be good to run the bike without the worm gear? I am able to reassemble without it so the engine would be sealed. I would have to kick start but I am uncertain if there are other concerns but doing so.

Thanks again.

I think checking your flywheel woodruff key is very important, too.

running without the worm shaft: no, I'd think there'd be oil issues (leaks). but maybe taking the ring gear out would be okay. Anyone? There is a block-off made for the TC that would work if you just wanna remove everything temporarily or permanently- and you could leave the ring gear in.

I think the bevel gear drives the shaft by the woodruff key. Look for any damage in the shaft, key, or gear... 'cause I'm thinking it should've just dropped out. Unless the shaft is a taper fit of course.

yes, I think loose worm housing bolts would've caused a big oil leak... but I think (*think*) that you would've had starter problems or noises too. the torque force on the worm shaft from trying to turn the ring gear in the normal direction could've broken your mount. ehhh, maybe. I still think it was a kickback event. Do you remember any such thang happening?

sounds like you're making progress. I guess I should remind you that I've never had the worm shaft out of my bike (although I'm just now having starter problems) so a lot of this is speculation on my part. IOW, "internet expert" here. so be aware that my opinions might hold a little less sway than my normal jump-in-with-both-feet-and-investigate-the-hell-out-of-things-until-I-know-everything-about-everything mode.

 

[Judgie]

Just wanted to provide another update.

The root of the issue was most certainly loose bolts. The starter motor bolts had backed off enough that there was play in the worm drive housing and it failed at the weakest point, where the oil port is. I figure that with enough time it was bound to fail.

The worm drive and gear are both in perfect condition. No signs of wear whatsoever.

I am getting into the valve clearances this weekend, just to make sure I'm within the spec (factory good enough?)

However, I am seeing another issue that I do need to ask about.

The starter itself is performing oddly and I need clarification on how it is intended to work. When I engage the starter motor it appears to get stuck in the 'on' position. Like the actuator has not retracted and although the starter motor itself is not being electrified, the gear is engaged and turning with the engine. Since this isn't actually making the engine turn over I switch to the kick start and it sounds like I'm turn both the engine and the starter motor in my attempt to start the bike.

Can the starter be stuck in the engaged position? Can I un-stuck it buy disassembling/cleaning? Suggestions here would be great.

Thank you.

 

[Trenchcoat85]

sounds like a failing sprag possibly.

 

[Judgie]

Where is that located?

Is #41 the sprag?

 

[Trenchcoat85]

Where is that located?

the sprag is a one-way clutch that connects the ring gear with the stator; the sprag inner diameter is driven by the ring gear and the outer diameter drives the rotor (...."normally"- its when this sequence is reversed, by the motor spinning backwards, that shit happens).

it looks like a weird bearing- #41
the ring gear is #39

 

[Trenchcoat85]

wow- you're "liking" post faster than I can re-edit 'em.

I wanted to add that the starter drive train is constantly engaged- it's the one-way characteristic of the sprag that keeps the engine from spinning the starter.

IOW, when the starter gears are spinning faster counter-clockwise than the crank: the sprag is engaged. when the crank is spinning faster than the starter drive train- the sprag dogs disengage.

Note than when the engine momentarily spins a half-revolution backwards, that, in essence the starter drive train is spinning ccw relative to the crank and so the sprag engages.

 

[Judgie]

Gotchya.

I will try an dig in and see what I can find this weekend. Appreciate the help.

Is it typically the spring that fails and can it be replaced or should the whole unit be dealt with?

http://www.cafehusky.com/threads/2009-te310-starter-not-engaging-and-the-fix.82936/

Found the above post and hoping it's a similar fix for me.

 

[Trenchcoat85]

Gotchya.

I will try an dig in and see what I can find this weekend. Appreciate the help.

Is it typically the spring that fails and can it be replaced or should the whole unit be dealt with?

http://www.cafehusky.com/threads/2009-te310-starter-not-engaging-and-the-fix.82936/

Found the above post and hoping it's a similar fix for me.

replace the whole sprag. OTOH, someone took a garter spring off of a 50mm seal and used that to successfully revive the sprag

edit: shit- yeah that's the thread i was thinking of. I should read a little closer.

 

[Judgie]

Any chance anyone might know what the thread size on the flywheel is? trying to not spend $100 on a remover tool....

 

[Judgie]

Just need to confirm if the tool i need is the M26x1mm or M26x1.5mm (Flywheel extractor), anyone know what would fit the 2011 TE310?

Thanks!

 

[R_Little]

Husky sells the tool.

Contact ZipTY racing. They have an awesome holder tool. if you are going to keep the bike you will need it.
Like Trench mentioned, be careful of sheared woodruff keys holding the flywheel in place. they happen a lot and can be catastrophic to you motor.

if I were you and I wanted to get riding quickly, I would simply buy the small starter shaft cover from a 2010-2012 TC250, and slap it on and ride next weekend. You'd of course have to kickstart only.

You can run the bike without the shaft or starter installed if you just cover the hole.

 

[Judgie]

Great, thanks! I have both tools sitting in my cart and I'm adding some other goodies (Drain Back Kit, Axel pull and more).

Is the holder really necessary? It definitely looks well made but can I get away with a less expensive solution? I do plan to keep the bike awhile longer yet so I might just pull the trigger.

Also, can anyone comment on the worm gear and acceptable wear? I would have expected the profile to be square but it appears that mine has a little groove starting to appear. The worm drive is possibly leaving it's mark, albeit minor at this point. I'm just not clear on what a new one would look like so I can't compare, perhaps they just come this way?

Thanks again everyone. I appreciate the help

 

[Trenchcoat85]

Great, thanks! I have both tools sitting in my cart and I'm adding some other goodies (Drain Back Kit, Axel pull and more).

Is the holder really necessary? It definitely looks well made but can I get away with a less expensive solution? I do plan to keep the bike awhile longer yet so I might just pull the trigger.

Also, can anyone comment on the worm gear and acceptable wear? I would have expected the profile to be square but it appears that mine has a little groove starting to appear. The worm drive is possibly leaving it's mark, albeit minor at this point. I'm just not clear on what a new one would look like so I can't compare, perhaps they just come this way?

Thanks again everyone. I appreciate the help

a strap wrench can be used to hold the rotor (for god's sake- not a chain wrench). you can also put it in gear (3rd or 4th) and have someone or something hold down the brake pedal. This technique gets clumsy though. Also you can try jamming a short section of chain between the rear sprocket and drive-chain.

a holder is nice though.

worm gear wear: if you can see or feel anythig, it's probably shot. Ring gear: same thing, but don't be taken in by the dished center section (which is what I think you're referring too)